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Posted By Tracey C
Hello I wonder if somebody could please help me out. We manage student accommodation and we have just aquired a building that is very old 18oo's but some parts of it have been refurbished. We have asked for the main office area and reception to be refurbished as our staff will be working in there and at the moment it is quite tatty I have asked for an Asbestos report to be carried out before any contractors go on site to start work, am I correct in doing this. The persons we aquired the buidling from have had a report completed on some parts of the building but not others, should they have had all the building surveyed? Could we contra-charge them for now having to carry out a survey?
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Tracey,
The previous owner should have had an asbestos survey and management plan in place as from May 2004, however it would be incumbent on you to ensure this was available before you purchased, I believe.
That said as you are now doing refurbishment then you should get a type 3 survey completed by a UKAS accredited Asbestos Surveying company, if this falls under the remit of CDM the the Client / PS should ensure this is done and is incuded as part of the pre tender H&S Plan if any remedial Asbestos Work is to be undertaken as part of the package of works.
If it does not fall under CDM it still should be done before work is allowed to commence so that an Asbestos Removal Contractor can be used to do any remedial work on 'licensed products' or it can be given to the successful tenderer who could sub contract that part of the work.
email me if you want any further advice
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Posted By EJ
Your duties under reg 4 of CAWR requires you to have an asbestos management plan which involves idenitifying any asbestos present within the building. This should include all areas of the building. If you believ areas of the building to be too old for asbestos state so in your management plan but have a contingency that if contractors come across a material that they suspect to be asbestos stop work until you can confirm either way. Use contractors that have had asbestos awareness training. With regards to refurbishments ensure you carry out a type 3 asbestos survey of the areas as this should identify any hidden asbestos installations.
Hope this helps
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
You describe a fairly typical scenario. This really ought to have been sorted out before the acquisition process was completed - it is generally termed a H&S Due Diligence exercise. Unfortunately it is often overlooked or carried out in a peremptory fashion leaving the new occupier with the potential for substantial unwanted, and unanticipated, costs.
The MDHS 100 document states a type 3 intrusive must be done for all major refurbishment or demolition works. It does not, as not entirely unexpected, define "major" in terms of refurbishment. I tend to view any cutting through existing materials as major and thus requiring a type 3 in the location of the work or works. I doubt a type 3 was done previously but the lease or sale agreement would almost certainly place the onus on yourselves to undertake the necessary works. The existence of a type 3 report would be a bonus for those areas that it covers - it depends on the extent and quality of the report - some are type 2s with a different title!!
Bob
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Did you know that you can claim 125% tax relief against remediation of contaminated land and buildings you purchase which have to have asbestos removed fall into this bracket, with a few caveats
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
EJ
I have some concerns with the suggestion that contractors are permitted to come across asbestos. I have had experience where the HSE have taken a very dim view of "finding" asbestos in the course of refurbishment works. The first occassion elicited a warning the second a PN.
I personally have found asbestos throughout a derelict Victorian hotel of 1850 vintage so old age is no guide. The only age guide with the imprimateur of the HSE is 1998 for new buildings. Survey reports are vital wherever work is to be carried out - not necessarily type 3 on all occassions though.
Bob
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Posted By Tracey C
Thank you all very much for your valued advice.
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Posted By EJ
Bob,
I was suggesting that contractors should as a matter of course have had some kind of asbestos awareness training and not that this should be adopted as a survey method.
I agree that age should not discount the liklihood of asbestos being present and would always recommend a type 3 survey for extensive refurbishment works.
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Posted By Tracey C
Hi Bob
I did understand what you meant and I totally agree with you with regards to the training and competance to the contractors we use. Contractors that have received training on working with asbestos are more likely to pick up on something that is not right than somebody that has never dealt with asbestos situations before.
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Posted By Dave Wilson As from October ALL persons who work in construction or the allied building trades will be legally required to undergo asbestos awareness training, the HSE 'Don't take the gamble' initative is to be launched on 7 Sept 06 see http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/campaign.htm
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Posted By Dave Wilson
PS the tax relief includes the survey costs as well
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Posted By Tracey C
Thanks Dave the company accountant usually dreds my e-mails as he know it will cost him money but I am sure the tax releif will make him a happier man (maybe just for 1 day).
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tracey
You could always remind him that if a tiny fraction of the effort of the financial and commercial DD had been put into the H&S DD then the problem would not have occurred:-) Put the info in your ammunition belt for the next old building acquisition and remind everybody of the cost of the last one because the H&S DD was omitted as a minor issue.
I have also to demur to EJ concerning competence etc - it was he who raised the topic. In view of the campaign by the HSE I think any work with asbestos will be under the limelight once more. I have recently seen a request for CCTV in a stripping area together with recording of the information so who knows the next move.
Bob
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Posted By Jim Walker
Dave Wilson,
I was going to ask you off forum but maybe others need enlightening too.
Regarding your comment about mandatory awareness training for construction workers.
Does this training take the form of a specific course?
Had a quick look on HSE site but can't see the answer
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Yes mate,
If you look in the draft CD in early part of this year and also in the new Draft ACoP (http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/issues.htm)look in meeting agenda 25 July 06 its in there.
This is Reg 10 page 39 para 126 of the Draft Acop
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Not hijac this but I have been mentioning this for 6 months now, the HSE "Dont take the gamble" campaign kicks off on 7th Sept before the regs introduced in October.
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Posted By Jim Walker
Dave,
Had a look at draft Acop (thanks for that)
What I wanted to know was can anyone cobble up an Asbestos awarness course (we already do and deliver that)that covers ACoP issues or should I send all my blokes on a specific one, eg CSCS (joke!).
Seriously is CITB or some such running THE ONE that all clients will be expecting to see?
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Posted By Dave Wilson
No in short,
The people who are "recognised" by the HSE (use the term loosely) are those which appear on their List of Asbestos Training providers website and who have agreed to deliver the training in accordance with the New Contractors Guide and L27/8 and the new ACop when it comes out.
These training providers will sign up to the ATPWG (Asbestos Training Providers Working Group) who have the knowledge and experience to deliver Asbestos Training and sign up to the Code of Conduct which classifies TP into 3 categories, Cat 1 for ALL asi trainig, Cat 2 for training for unlicensed work and Class 3 for awarness only. it will involve an application and ongoing auditing by inndependant auditers to see that your training will comply with the new ACoP etc
Hope that helps, but email me if you need any more info
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Posted By Dave Wilson
That said anyone can do it, however if you use a TP from the HSE www then you will get good quality (I Hope!)there is no statutory requirment to do so is what I am saying.
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