Posted By JAI
Let’s say i know a H&S Officer who has been banned from one of his sites!

The reason for this ban
Carrying out an accident investigation that did not point the finger of blame at the individual (to managers dislike) but to senior managers for their failings.

So they banned the H&S Officer from site and carried out another investigation that pointed the blame at the individual

Anyone else been banned from site before?

Thoughts please,

Jai

Posted By Catman
Hi Jai

Yes, been banned before, site manager said I was personally targeting him as I would not let go of the fact that his scaffold was always unsafe.

I went to the MD and got a future open invite to his site. No more cups of tea though.

One daft manager does not always reflect the attitude of the whole company.

TW

Posted By sagalout
JAI,
Now this could just be Friday and this may be one of those, see what we get threads. But it is a good question to think around so IMHO-

I have often been in a position where my conclusions are at first not “acceptable” to site management or senior management. I have also been very close to being “escorted” from the site (both construction and manufacturing). It never actually happened though due to a mixture of a learned ability to negotiate and often the clear support of a senior manager behind the investigation.

1. It appears on the face of it that this organisation has some gaps in the organization and arrangements re investigations. OR
2. Person/persons are not following them or are being allowed /encouraged not to do so.
3. There is no doubt in my opinion that if a safety “officer” (those quotes are highlighting my prejudice again) has been banned from site then he/she has failed just as much as “senior management”.
4. Is there a lack of clarity in the organisation or individual about the difference between “authority” and “influence” or “persuasion”.
5. Does the safety “officer” have authority to implement the changes recommended or just to recommend?
6. In the best organistions, any investigation is approved and accepted by those who manage the organisation and without that approval, the investigation cannot be complete. (I limit that comment to an employed scenario since it clearly is not the case sometimes)
7. Get off the hook about blame/fault/lesson to learn stuff. Understand the theory but apply it practically.
8. I do not think I have ever investigated an accident where one or two simple causes were the conclusions. Often there are failings at both employee level and at some point with the management O&A. You do get knowing or negligent behaviour but it is much less common than organizational failure.

Thus, pointing the finger at senior management is just as likely to get the same response as doing it to a large scaffolder, the only difference is where you feel the pain.

Thanks for the question, my brain enjoyed the walk

Posted By sagalout
So just a few minor issues then.
Is this due to not knowing any better; that they think they do have this stuff or they just dont give a damn about all this H&S paper +++*!
Was there an accident and would putting all this organisational stuff in place prevent it or are there other things that need to change like peoples skills, behaviours.
How has the investigator dealt with the presentation of such a technically damning report?
You see I could take your response as someone just wanting to clog up my site with lots of paper and stuff I haven't got time for or monewy in my budget to pay for.
Even worse, your mythical officer could have been perceived as an over officious H&S twit who has completely missed the point.(I do not mean that personally please, please)

Unless your mythical officer now has the full backing of a manager more senior than the one who has banned your mythical safety officer, give him/her a few links to HSE jobs and tell them get out as soon as you can.
If you have the backing and decide to stay, the task is now to "educate", "influence" and "advise" the site management. The "authority" to impose will have to come from the senior manager.

Am I fully on the hook now?

Posted By sagalout
In which case, probably the best thing happened for both the safety guy and the site. What effect on future H&S at that site? Pebble in a pond. What effect on H&S if he stayed, no doubt negative because of the situation that developed

I hope I cannot hear you saying "told you so".

Have a good weekend and I did enjoy the chat whether I was on a hook or not.

Cheers

Posted By Red Ones
Does INDG232 help cast any light on this?

Under Health and Safety (Consultation with Employees)Regulations (HSCER) 1996 the law protects employees against being dismissed or other action taken against them because they have taken part in health and safety consultation (whether as an individual or a representative).

Surely the investigation of an accident is included as part of the consultation of employees and, therefore, the HSO is afforded some legal protection. By banning the HSO from a site the employer is restricting their ability to fulfil their duties and has taken action that prevents them from making their contribution under the contribution of the employee rights.

Any sane rational employer should lift htis ban and apologise to the HSO, then choose to ignore their recommendations! (OR should that read, carry out a risk assessment and make an alternative decision)