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Posted By Austin. U
Can someone please tell me the electrical requirements in a construction site for a concrete mixer(duo-mix 2000)and can the mixer (duo-mixer 2000)with the following technical data:3kW,230/400 v,50hz,260 rpm allowable on site.
Many thanks,
A.U.
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Posted By Richard Altoft
Not usual to allow 230 volts on site unless effects of any short circuit is protected against by some other very reliable means. Only tend to see 230 volt equipment in some internal works like DIY and small builders on house extensions and of course on sites where noboby cares but not out on properly managed sites where wet and muddy conditions and electrical shorts could combine with fatal results.
HSG150 page 67 is a good place to start for this kind of question
Best of luck
R
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Posted By Chris Pope
An HSE inspector would not let you use a 240v mixer on site.
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Posted By Is Kismet
Even if it was RCD protected - could you quote your source please?
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Posted By Saracen11
Hi Austin, this is a good question and I wish I knew the answer - I was asked a similar question ages ago and had to refer it to a colleague (I wish I'd asked for the answer...)
Kismet can you quote your source? Like I said, this is an interesting question, so if you know why/why not, tell us (don't take my directness the wrong way... it's late and I'm revising)
Regards
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Posted By Is Kismet
I'm looking for a source within the UK legal system that says I cannot use 240 volt equipment on a building site. And I would especially like to see a definitive statement from the HSE that states a 240 volt mixer must not be used on site. If there is a source, does it not allow for 240 volt RCD protected equipment on site?
Again if there is such a source and it does not allow RCD protection, it would contradict the bringing of 110 volt transformers on sites which themselves are powered by 240 volts.
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
My direct experience of this is from over fifteen years ago when a continental contractor wanted to bring 240 and 415v mobile electrical equipment onto site.
The local HSE inspector was of the opinion that there is no ban on using equipment greater that 110v on a construction site. (i.e. nothing to stop it in the law)
However, he was looking for all cables to be steel wire armoured (or otherwise protected from mechanical damage); suitable protective systems (RCD's etc) and did warn the contractor that if he fould ANYTHING less than perfect he would issue and enforcement notice.
In short if 110v equipment is available then that should be used; if it is not then with suitable precautions in place higher voltage equipment could be used.
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Posted By Richard Altoft
Looking at it another way, how would you argue it was not reasonably practicable to use 110 volts in the light of 110 volt mixers being available and petrol driven being available or at least being easy to protect a 240/110v transformer from weather, water and contact by humans in the light of accepted practice and HSE guidance. It is not always about rules it is about driving risks as low as is reasonably practicable. Need a source - HASWA1974 and MHSWR 1999.
R
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Posted By Is Kismet
Richard, I'm not arguing it is not reasonable. But if people are going to cateforically state - An HSE inspector wouldn't allow 240V on site - then I need to discuss this, both to see where it says that, and why an RCD protected piece of equipment would not be sufficient, and what exceptions there are to it (if any).
However, it's not my intention to sit in the middle of the road for the next few messages, blocking everybody's process to show that I am right, I'm hoping to sit to one side and learn more about this topic? :-)))))
A number of contributors on different topics come out with blanket statements - anyone with an enquiring mind must would be then be expected to ask about the source - surely?
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Posted By Catman
Hi All
Although you may not find anything banning RCD's,............
See HELA guidance on Electricity at work regs (LAC 19/3 - section 13(5)).
Does not ban 240v with RCD but certainly suggests enforcers should look for 110v as the standard.
Cheers
TW
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Posted By Austin. U
Thanks all.It's getting really interesting but challenging.
A.U.
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Posted By Is Kismet
Both of which, recommend 110V. The NECEIC adds 110v needed only when the equipment is under 3.75kw.
But I currently can't see anything about RCDs making 240v acceptable, so at this moment of my research 110v transformers are also not recommended on site.
Now, the NECIEC recommend risk assessment. Another useless statement if HSE inspectors genuinely will not allow 240v on site.
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Posted By Catman
Hi Is Kismet
Re your research, what a lot of sites do is provide 'spider' type transformers, if you like, forming part of the 'site installation' which is 230v covered by a 30mA RCD, with a 3 monthly inspection schedule, the 110v transformer is in a safe(ish) area and tools are fed from there using extension leads.
The reason for the wattage limit is more to do with with the capability of the 110v supply to drive the equipment efficiently.
Sorry, I know this does not clear up your query, I suspect you will find it very difficult to find an inspector/other person with a reputation to protect saying that its OK to use 240 with an RCD in construction as it is very difficult to meet the required electrical safety standards and almost unenforceable on site.
RCD's are good, but not perfect, I would not like to be relying on the one that sticks. (they are mechanical after all), but on (frequently) finding my clients using 240v on site, they are much, much better than nothing, while they save up to buy a whole new set of tools.
Cheers
TW
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Posted By John Middleton
There is legislation and specific guidance available. the information below is paraphrased and the source documents should be consulted.
Electricity at work regs
R4 Equipment should be properly maintained
R6 Equipment exposed to damage; weather; wet, dusty or corrosive conditions, should be constructed or protected to prevent danger.
R8 Provision of suitable precautions; relates to earthing, insulation, reduced voltage systems
Guidance on the above is given in HSG 141 Electrical safety on construction sites.
Portable equipment
para 66
110v centre tapped; weekly user check, monthly visual inspection, inspection and test before first use and 3 monthly
230V; must be through 30mA RCD; user check every shift, weekly visual inspection, inspection and test before first use and monthly
RCDs must also be subject to user checks every shift, weekly inspections and 3 monthly combined inspection and test.
para 67
Where the supply is 230V or above, contractors can reduce risks by using cordless or reduced low voltage supply (e.g. 110V centre tapped). Lighting should be lower voltage still.
Where a fatality occurs due to the use of a 230V mixer, you would be hard pressed to convince the court that 110V was not reasonably practicable. Further, I do not think any Construction inspectors would be happy with the use of 230V for anything other than DIY.
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Posted By Is Kismet
Hi Austin
Can you see how a simple question escalates!
I'm never very happy when someone makes a categoric statement but are then unable to back it up, mainly because it can seriously mislead people. I (we?) prefer references to sources and to listen to the voice of experience in giving practical applications so that people can make their own minds up.
This thread has been very successful in doing just that, and you now need to pick out the bits you need. 110v are preferred and Catman has come up with the practical aspects of what happens on site.
I didn't know about the NECEIC advice about 110v needed only when the equipment is under 3.75kw or their comment about risk assessment - I'd take the latter with a pinch of salt!
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