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Posted By Michael Carroll
HI all,
I run our firms manual handeling training and was after some ideas from you all. I have made up a good powerpoint pres for the theory side of things but have run out of ideas for the practcal part.
The old carrying boxes from one side of the roon to the other is wearing a bit thin so was wondering if anyone had any ideas to make it a bit more interesting?.
any comments, suggestions welcome!
Mike
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Posted By brian mills
Mike,
What we do after the PowerPoint and film, is to go out into that yard and demonstrate correct handling and posture,
I always have a pallet nearby and ask somebody to get me a pallet from the stack, its good to see the thinking process, E.G.shall I get a sack truck, a FLT, ask somebody to help me, or pick up the nearby one?
It normally gets a good conversation going about everyday handling issues.
On a persoanl note Mike can I see a copy of your Powerpoint, I am in the process of updating mine?
Regards
Brian
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Posted By Michael Carroll
brian
I have emailed you
mike
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Posted By Darren J Fraser
Part of my course involves the lifting, transporting and lowering of awkward, cumbersome, unstable loads - box wrapped up and inside is a brick / sand (shifts quite well), 4ft length of metal pipe (weighs about 12 kg), sure you get the idea. It helps if you can use some of the objects they are likely to encounter within their workplace.
Another option I have used on occasion is to take them to their workstation before and after the presentation and get them to demonstrate how they can / have improved their technique.
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Posted By brian mills
Thanks Mike
Just the Job
regards
Brian
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Posted By Michael Carroll
Thanks all for your ideas.
Cheers
Mike
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
When I had a manual handling training course, I refused the "test".
Reason ?
I don't lift barrels filled with bolts in "real life", so I wouldn't lift them for a test !
The firm complained, stating "I had to take the test", I complained to the HSE stating that the test itself was a significant weight to lift and was likely to cause injury not save me from injury. They agreed, also finding that the training course did not have any warning that the test may itself cause an inury, and that no questions were asked as to whether the trainee was able to lift it, or had any medical condition that lifting may aggrevate. I also refused the "team lift", stating that I didn't do "team lifting" anyway, and that team lifting was more likely to CAUSE injuries than stop them. Something that the HSE spent a considerable amount of public money researching.....why it caused more injuries than single lifting, that is. Unsurprisingly, their research found that the cause of the problem was that if one end was dropped the poor guys holding the other end was out of balance, holding a weight heavier than he could handle on his own and a weight that was pulling him further out of balance.
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Posted By Manny
I totally agree with John. I once worked for a furniture removal business and our department was provided manual handling training form a reputable training establishment. All the training was done in the classroom and we lifted various (small) items which the instructer had brought with him. The management got a tick in the box so he was happy. We then left and started delivering our very large pieces of furniture, carrying them along poorly maintained footpaths and up stairwells designed in the 1700's. Still at least we all got a certificate.
Manny
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Posted By Is Kismet
Manny, you have misunderstood the purpose of the training.
I teach manual handling, but I don't and probably can't, lift furniture upstairs. I can't and don't lift 25kg bags of sand, or seed or whatever. I can't (and wouldn't want to) carry out training in different environments to catch every single environment people can lift in.
What I do is teach technique - which most people can use and adapt for their own place of work, and which will help them to minimise the risk of injury.
I would say the instructor you had didn't explain that point properly - or you missed it.
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Posted By Is Kismet
John, surprisingly I agree with your points. I would never ask anybody to lift a substantial weight in a training session - how do I know their capabilities, how do I know what peer pressure is going on in the course/company, it would be irresponsible. I do demonstrate each point, and I do ask for volunteers to lift empty boxes so that we can discuss techniques, and show where the body strains are, and explain the mechanics of lifting.
I personally know of a case where team lifting resulted in a labourer losing a kneecap - and I would never encourage it unless both people are trained AND know each others capabilities.
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Posted By Manny
Is, I wasn't getting at all trainers who teach manual handling. I've recently attended a manual handling course, which was also held mainly in the classroom, and it was excellent. I just believe that if you are training a group of personnel who conduct the same task then it would be a good idea to let them try out what they have learned in their own workplace under supervision of the instructor. I understand that it not always possible to imitate working conditions and that you have to use the tools available. I also wouldn't have expected the elderly trainer to demonstrate how to carry the furniture I don't think she would have managed it. Keep up the good work.
Manny
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Posted By Steve Swann
Mike
I have just taken over the task of manual handling training. The power point presentation used previously seems outdated and most of it irrelevant. Could you email yours so I can get some ideas to revamp this tired version.
Many thanks
Steve
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Posted By GJB
Interesting debate and some good points raised. For my two 'penneth, I would say training alone DOESN'T work! And I say this as a provider of training, H &S as well as Management and Sales.
Why do I say this? Well, too many Managers or Organisations send delegates on training courses for an afternoon, a day or whatever... And then expect them to return to the workplace and implement all of their new found knowledge, skill and behaviour!! For me, training is the very start of the process and the real learning takes place back in the workplace, with the FULL support of peers and certainly line Management and perhaps others.
Rather like learning to drive a car! You take lessons, pass your test... but the real learning takes place when you are left to your own devices, deciding what lane to get into at the approaching roundabout... with no one sitting next to you to ask!
I concur with Is, in terms of what is 'trained' on a course: It is methodology and technique... to take back to the workplace and put into practice.
Take care all!
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
The best idea, and what should be done, is to reduce the need to manually handle anything of any weight !
The idea that you can teach someone the correct way to lift 25kg and then expect them to lift same ad-infinitum, with no injury occurring, is laughable.
Another guy, on the same training course, when asked to lift the can of bolts, walked out the door and came back with the forklift......when asked why he replied "you asked me to lift it as I would normally, so I am".....the trainer said "I meant by hand"......the guy said "I wouldn't lift that by hand, too heavy"
You guys need to remember: the majority of workers in this country only get SSP if sick or injured and unable to work. The waiting list for non-life-threatening surgery (such as spinal injuries) is long....so why would you expect people to willingly lift heavy goods, just to save you the cash for a fork lift or other lifting machinery ?
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Posted By Merv Newman
Great thread which brought back memories of a site I audited about ten years ago (and I totally agree with ALL of the respondants)
The site in question (1500 employees) had spent a fortune on manual handling training for the 1000 production employees. Two weeks later there was no sign of anyone having ever been trained. Why not ?
Because not one manger/foreman/supervisor had taken the training.
This kind of training, as with most training, asks people to learn and to put into practice new habits. But when they come out of the training it is far too easy to keep going with the old habits unless some knowledgeable person is there to remind and help you to "habituate" the new ideas. And it takes time : days or weeks. Have you ever tried to change a habit ? Smoking, drinking, scratching your bum when nervous ? whatever.
Nowadays, when recommending training, the first lot through are the management.
Last time I went through this sort of training the instructor had lots of awkwardly shaped objects but I don't think any of them weighed more than a few kilos.
As a kid I remember rolling 40 gallon (200 litre) drums across the yard and then tilting them upright. Would I try that now ?
Merv
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Posted By GJB
I recently delivered some training for a Brewing organisation and in the past what had happened was exactly as described by Merv. i.e. Back in the workplace go back to the same old way. When I took over the training side in this organisation I asked how many Managers were on the delegate list. None, was the answer... 'Managers don't need to be trained'!!! Having explained the position from my point of view, in a diplomatic way, of course, the first session we did was with all the delegates being from Management. The idea was so that they could start instigating a safety culture, which, not-surprisingly worked! I'm happy, cos they think I am the 'Dogs' and they keep re-booking me! They are happy, cos again, not surprisingly, they have far fewer accidents or sick days due to injury!
Merv, I'm interested to know what was in those 40 gallon drums!.. Anything drinkable?!!
Take care all!
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Posted By steve jones
Mike, i am in the process of updating my powerpoint for Manual Handling and wondered if you could sent me yours to see if i could improve mine?
Thanks
Steve
Steve.Jones40@btopenworld.com
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Posted By Is Kismet
As a kid I remember rolling 40 gallon (200 litre) drums across the yard and then tilting them upright.
How did you tilt them upright?
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Posted By GJB
Is, have you not seen Merv? He's as strong as an Ox!
I put it down to years of fine French cuisine... but not sure what he ate as a kid? Spinach?
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Posted By Paul Horton
This is a subject next on my agenda, the local authority in Nottingham gave me a pack full of HSE handouts, not much help in developing a presentation, off the bask of that I left it on the back burner waiting for inspiration (well still waiting!!)
Would you send me a copy of yours, you no doubt have information I can use / adopt or develop for my environment.
Sorry I cannot help you on this one, but I did a paper on slips and trip not so long back so if you go down “oop’s head over boobs” route in the future give me a shout, it deals with cleaners and mops, any way here I go yab yab yab
Please send to pauldhorton@btinternet.com
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Not wishing to hi-jack this thread but to use some of the expertise here and the repsonses may be of interest to others. I am currently looking into manual handling operations from various perspectives.
For Client confidentiality I will be a little vague, basically we are looking to fit a large number of units (33,000) of various weights up to 105Kg. The task will include moving the units from stillages off a lorry at road level, down escalators and steps to platform level.
Now, whilst many things have been considered, the task can be quite precarious using teams to lift. However, it is purely a numbers thing. With so many units to deliver and fit, there is a likelihood of a serious incident occurring. If, and when, a serious incident does ocurr, questions will be asked. Will I have the answers?
Has anyone had a similar problem they have dealt with or overcome? Any suggestions/ideas would also be welcome. Many thanks.
Regards
Ray
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Posted By darren booth
the manual handling training outlined by the o.p. would technically be kinetic lifting training, unless the trainees actually move sealed boxes with sand in from table "a" to table "b" as part of their daily routine, that is. this sort of training is fine to demonstrate technique, but to be effective, manual handling training must be done at the trainees work area (in my opinion,of course)
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Posted By Is Kismet
Ray, purely as a suggestion and not knowing the background, would it be possible to bring the items in at platform level from another station that doesn't have stairs/escalators?
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Posted By Is Kismet
darren - what does o.p. mean?
thank you in advance.
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Posted By M Laverick
Be useful for my revision if I had some acronyms to remember regs etc. Nebosh general certificate exams,
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Posted By Is Kismet
You'd be better off just learning the topic. Acronyms are a pain in the butt, and used far too freely.
A discussion several months/years? ago showed one acronym to have 4 different meanings and the originator had used the wrong one.
Now, op can mean operating procedure, but that doesn't fit into darren's context, any guesses on other meanings before he replies?
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Posted By Merv Newman
The drums were full of latex. As a technician in a paper mill part of my job was running trials on coating solutions. 400 litres of water, 200 litres of latex and 200 kg of clay. Clay was in 25kg sacks and had to be carried up four steps and tipped into the tank at shoulder height.
To tip the drum upright just bend your knees (and everything else) get your hands underneath and straighten up.
I was much bigger at the time.
Merv
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Posted By darren booth
hi,when i said op, i was refering to the original post- i should know better than to use acronyms,my apologies.
although reading through the thread again,some of the points were not in that first post, but the principle is still sound,theory is fine in a classroom,but the practical side of manual handling training should always be "on the job"
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Posted By Jeffrey Watt
Michael
I don't think anyone mentioned past incidents/case studies. I always tell stories of incidents I have had to investigate. As much to explain how smart guys and gals still hurt themselves even with all the training/equipment etc.
I usually start by telling everyone that this training doesn't work (HSE stats I read show no real drop in injuries since MHORegs, that data may have changed). That gets their attention. Then give them the case studies.
I don't show methods or techniques because real life is too complex and a few techniques can not fit all scenarios.
I try to avoid the "bent zee neeze" robo-training approach to manual handling after reading in SHP of a Manual Handling trainor who sued their employer. Turns out bending the knees everyday for two years left them unable to walk without pain. That kind of rams home the wear and tear aspect of MH.
So I base my work on principles, avoid lifting, avoid excess loads, avoid twisting, avoid over reaching, avoid stooping, avoid rushing.
I also use a 10lb sledge hammer to demonstrate the principles and the effects of load centre of gravity on the body. A trainor with a sledge hammer always picques interest I find. Sledge hammers are a great ice breaker as are priests with crates of Stella Artois.
Jeff
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Posted By Michael Carroll
Hi Jeff
Thanks for your imput to this can of worms that i've opened. There has been some interesting comments made.
Keep "em" coming!
Mike
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Posted By Is Kismet
.....I usually start by telling everyone that this training doesn't work (HSE stats I read show no real drop in injuries since MHORegs, that data may have changed). That gets their attention. Then give them the case studies.....
We agree on that, I start off the same way, but for a different reason. I tell delegates it doesn't work simply because lifting a box in the lecture room is just slightly different from moving furniture/slabs .... (whatever the client manually handles).
We also agree on the mechanics/bodily loads and about twisting, stooping and so on.
BUT I don't understand how you can't teach some lifting techniques? Surely you mention the strength of the legs, to try to use the legs whenever possible, the concept of a straight back whatever the lifting circumstances ... ? The need to check the put down location to avoid twisting...
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Posted By artisdeeian
Come on guys, we all have different views on Manual Handling training. The emphasis is on 'Techniques' and 'Training'. those of us who are professional trainers have a job to do. Like many professionals we do the best we can to get the message across. I don't know of anyone who can nor does lift excatly to the book (That many books)we all know about the 'Claim culture' and what Management and everyone else for that matter have to do to comply with the regulations. We can al argue till the cows come home, but the main criteria is that the techniques along with theory, and statistics have been explained.
What more can we do?
Ian.
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Posted By Is Kismet
I'd thought until now we were having a reaonable discussion.....
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Posted By artisdeeian
Sorry for commenting Kismit. Democracy I thought.
Carry on!!!!!
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Posted By Is Kismet
I'm not sure what your point about democracy has got to do with anything?
I was pointing out I thought I was involved in a discussion, but that you think it is an argument.
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Posted By Michael Carroll
Now now boys....
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Posted By Is Kismet
We seem to have hit a problem with this thread.
Would it be possible to continue the discussion without arguments or name calling?
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Posted By GJB
Is, I think you've hit the problem!
Who's name calling or arguing?!
Here we go again!
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Posted By Is Kismet
Time to go.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Come on guys, we are having a sensible debate to an interesting subject. Kiss and make up.
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