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Posted By ROB ATKIN
Hello all, any advice on this would be most appreciated...
I have 3 custodians who as part of there job require access to the roof of our school.
Inspection of some lev units,recovering footballs and kid's shoes etc.
As we cannot afford to place hand rails or a similar system on the circumference of all of the roof and we access different points of the roof regularly I am having trouble trying to apply the working at height regs to this senario. I have a school govenor telling me that there should be no access to the roof until a fall arrest system can be provided. Any ideas?
Cheers
Rob
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Posted By Jim Walker
Can they do what they need to do and remain, say 2 metres away from the edge? If yes all you need is a MS/RA to say that's the control and they sign in to abide.
If no then you need some edge protection or fall restraint.
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Posted By MT
Jim is right in that it is either edge protection, which provides a safe place of work which persons cannot fall from, or you'd need to provide a work restraint system, which is very different to a fall arrest system.
Your governor is right in that access to the roof should be denied until a system is in place to remove the risk of someone falling from an unguarded edge. If you were to be visited by an enforcement officer who found out that persons were being allowed access to the roof, they would prohibit the practice until such time as a safe place of work has been provided.
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Posted By ddraigice
No, that is not good enough. Where in the wah regs or guidance does it say that you can work 2 metres from the edge?
First of all to get to/from the work area they have to be near the roof edge.
Secondly how do you ensure that they don't go near the edge when they are working? A signed agreement is not on the hierarchy.
You can do it this way but its breaching the law and a school or the governors would not want to be put in that situation. The governor is absolutely right.
Can the inspection be done without getting onto the roof? If not, there needs to be some sort of temporary edge protection or somewhere to clip on. If this is not feasible, plan the work so that once/twice a year a scaffold is put up. Trust me, you dont want to go through a fatal accident and a prosecution. I worked for one company who did - and there was nearly a manslaughter charge to boot.
Getting footballs down is not worth a life or a prosecution.
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Posted By MT
Agree with you ddraigice. Can't see "we told them not to go closer to the edge than 2m" standing up to scrutiny in a FAI.
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Posted By Jim Walker
DD,
I beg to differ - I was trying to enable through sensible analysis.
If I keep two metres from the edge what are my chances of falling from height - negligible.
A sign in to a method statement & risk assessment is a SSoW which is on MY hierarchy. Albeit low down, but then so is the risk unless your operatives are not to be trusted.
Look at it like this - when I go home I will drive on the left because the highway code (equivalent to the W@H regs)& my training tell me to do so. I don't need a lane barrier to enforce my actions. Where lane barriers exist it is where a risk assessment shows that the outcome of driving on the wrong side is intolerable without the barrier and that cross over might be outside the control of the driver (tyre blow out etc).
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Posted By ddraigice
You can differ all you like but if you are an IOSH member you should not be giving people advice that is contrary to regulations and in any case immoral.
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Posted By ddraigice
And a code of practice is not equivalent to a regulation in law.
Do you also advise people that for short duration journeys its OK not to wear your seatbelt? I mean whats the chances of them actually having an accident?
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Posted By ROB ATKIN
Thanks guys for the feedback so far
can anyone suggest an appropriate system
I am thinking of installing anchor points at strategic positions on the roof and then going down the harness route unless another more suitable system is suggested
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Posted By Chris121
Any work on a roof is high risk and safety standards are essential however long or short term the work is, not providing any safeguards is unacceptable. it is appreciated that providing adequate platforms and edge protection may not always be possible or reasonably practicable. If this is the case then either safety nets or harnesses will be required. These do not stop people falling, but minimise the potential injuries if they do. (HSE Guidance on roofworkls)
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Posted By MT
Rob, I think anchor points and a work restraint lanyard system would be well worth looking into.
How is the roof accessed? Is it via ladders, tower scaffold or through a hatch from inside the building? If from inside the building, then great, because the people can get onto the roof, attach themselves to the anchor point needed for their work and carry out the task. The lanyard would allow them to get to the work area, but not to the edge of the roof.
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Posted By gham
I would agree with both but be sensible about the risk assessment lets face it you would really have to jump to get from 2m away from the edge to off the roof.
Just out of intrest what length of arm have you got to be able to clip on and off when accessing the ladder.
You may have anchor points there already but you need to get up there to find out!!! where will it end
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Posted By holmezy
Agree with some and not with others
access to the roof doesnt necesarily have to be via the edge, there may be alternative access ie a door, hatch or abseiling from a higher window (joke)!!
SSOW are acceptable if all other means have been deemed impracticable or may be used to support other controls.
A restraint may also be suitable providing it prevents people falling of the edge.
However, in order to solve this dilemma, lets just stop kids playing with balls, wearing shoes and having anything else they could possibly throw onto a roof!!
Jim,
disagree with your WAH / Highway code analogy. WAH regs are to be obeyed. The highway code is an approved code of practise, ie you can drive on the right hand side of the road providing you can prove that you are meeting the same standard of safety or greater than the highway code. Love to see anyone try and defend that one in court......
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Posted By gham
send the kids up they are not at work sorted111
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Posted By Andy Walker
Yeah and they can do the chimneys whilst they're there.
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Posted By Andy Walker
Oh no I've been frivolous and lighthearted guess that'll be another email from the moderators!!!
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Posted By Jim Walker
Rob,
Not sure were I've seen it but there is a semi-portable anchorage system available that does not require attaching to the building fabric
Hi DD,
Well it would seem Rob has a situation were my scenario is not on anyway. So my suggestion may be inappropriate.
I think you misunderstand what i was trying to suggest: If the roof was the size of a football pitch you are saying that if the stairway was at say the centre spot, then I'm to treat the whole pitch in the same way as I'd need to around the touchline?
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Posted By ddraigice
What is the definition of a safe system of work?
Surely, of the large numbers of people who fall from height every year, a percentage of them would have had a ssow to follow - which would have been "Don't fall" as is being implied above. It's only safe if you dont fall. Its funny how many threads go on about how HSE prosecute people with hindsight and yet go on about apparent ssow that are in total conflict with the regulations and guidance.
The regs and the guidance categorically state that under no circumstances should wah be undertaken without some sort of safety equipment or reference to the hierarchy in the wah regs. You cant just make your own hierarchy up - or call a ssow safe when it isn't.
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Posted By ddraigice
There may be a case where that would be acceptable - but the scenario I mentioned earlier where the company I worked for were prosecuted was a similar issue.
People do unexpected things as we know - we were still prosecuted.
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Posted By Jim Walker
DD,
Thanks OK then mate.
I even forgive you for accusing me of being immoral.
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Posted By ROB ATKIN
there is no other access other than from a ladder presently. We do follow the rules with regards to the use of the ladder for access, 4 in 1 rule etc etc but there is no other way onto the roof other than ladder on the edge and stepping from the ladder to the roof surface.
I am looking at reducing access to roof to 2 weekly or even monthly controlled access for essential needs and not every other day which is what happens now for the PE Dept's best football.
Any website or brand names of harness restraint systems would be useful
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Posted By Andy Walker
Try Spanset or P+P
Andy W
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Posted By ddraigice
No offence intended.
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
DD strange way of showing it.
Is this not an issue of interpretation. The regs should have been termed risk of fall regs. It is possible to work at height with little or no risk of fall. Offshore Helipad for example when you are nowhere near the edge. The regulation address where there is a risk of fall. Is this in conflict with the HSE campaign for common sense? In reality you are unlikely to be able to control where a football or shoe, little girl or boy comes to rest once thrown on a roof. Therefore the "edge" debate is moot. If there is a risk of fall you will need to provide protection in line with the hierarchy. Bearing in mind the magnitude of risk.
Oh and before someone pipes up I know there can be such a thing as a fragile roof or fragile points in a roof.
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Posted By Brian Hagyard
Rob.
As a school governor myself appreciate the quandary. Its difficult to advise without seeing the actual roof, but for what its worth here's my two penny worth.
If you cannot provide a full barrier around the roof, then can you provide a protected access point with barriers to a central safety wire which runs along the roof. Once the custodian reaches this he/she clips on via a lanyard and harness which prevents them walking close enough to the edge to fall off.
I assume the roof has been assessed and is load bearing i.e. not a fragile surface.
Try a Google search on horizontal lifeline for examples of this.
Good Luck.
Brian
Sorry if I am repeating what others have said, got delayed in writing this response by the phone.
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Posted By ROB ATKIN
Thankyou to all of you for your input
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Posted By CW
I work for my LEA and we have a full section in our Handbook for this. I would imagine that your LEA H&S team will have the same, they may even put you in touch with another school that have had the same problem and found a solution.
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Posted By Ken Taylor
There are flat roofs that can be accessed by an internal stairway and door where it can be 30m or more from an unprotected edge. The WAH regs require risk assessment and if there is no risk of injury by falling there is no requirement for additional protective measures. Working at 200m from an unprotected edge does not require fall-protection. Working at 200mm clearly does. 2m is where we normally 'draw the line' - subject to any additional fall hazards.
In the case described above, I would get in one of the fall-protection companies with a view to getting a few anchor-points, ladder fixing points and an inertia-reel type line and harness - and, of course, training.
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Posted By Sean Nuttall
Get a quote for edge protection, it may not be as dramatic as you think.
At a previous employer, they insisted on erecting scaffold edge protection for access to low roof areas (around 2.5m height) which was fine and dandy if expensive.
When we had a look at erecting fixed handrails, it turned out to be cheaper than the scaffold !!
You also get minimal maintenance as opposed to installation of wires, no damage to roof membranes from installation of eye bolts, far less training, no harness purhcases or ongoing inspections required etc etc.
Get if fired up and relatively speaking you can all but forget it
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