Posted By Peter Leese Having looked through the archives I'm well aware there have been numerous threads on competency. However a recent comment by 'A' made me think. It is in response to a contributor who has indicated that a CMIOSH may have been negligent. The comment is below:

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Finally! Good post xx.. Which goes to prove to all those 'Gen. Cert. bashers' that just because you have CMIOSH after your name does not guarantee competency!! I could give you another half a dozen examples like this... but will spare you the trouble to read them! Are you listening out there?!

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Gen Cert Bashers - who are they, I have not met a single H&S person who would denigrate that qualification? I speak as an examiner for this qualification. CMIOSH doesn't guarantee competency - of course it doesn't. Just as being a doctor, or dentist, or surgeon or whatever doesn't guarantee competence. It is so obvious I can't understand why anybody would say different. Will you spare the trouble to read them? It seems to be a challenge - but why, has the writer been ignored in the past? Are you listening out there - what spurs that type of comment? I find it deeply disturbing that the profession that gives me a lot of satisfaction, pride, variety of work and a good living can produce such comment/s. They seen to indicate someone deeply dissatisfied with his/her status - to the extent of an apparent grudge against all CMIOSH's - but why should that be? Maybe, just maybe, if we can get it out in the open, we might, just might, start pulling together as a profession.

Posted By Tony Brunskill Peter, I agree. Generally the posts I have read do not "bash" the certificate, after all that is where a good deal of CMsIOSH started their careers. As you pointed out there is more to competence than a piece of paper. I have read the thread to which you refer. I believe the Competence and Professionalism debate needs to be separate. The two are often misconstrued. This is demonstrated as I see it on both sides of the debate in the aforementioned thread. Selection and protection of the M&E Contractor?Why was there Asbestos Survey? Determination of the monitoring strategy prior to awarding the contract? Fabrication of evidence for the inspector? Some of these fall within the role of the client. Competence suggests the wherewithall to deliver a service, professionalism suggests the diligence to actually deliver the service. Sadly it is a debate that goes on and on amongst all safety professionals and one I feel will not be decided for some time to come. That said what chance does the SME employer have. If safety professionals cannot agree on these criteria how can we expect the average employer to be able to. Until we reach Utopia the adage "In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is King" will allow unscrupulous operators to peddle their wares. Regardless of qualification or (and I deliberately include this as a separate issue) competence. I welcome the open debate. But until we have an organisation such as the Financial Standards Agency (FSA) operating in the Safety Sector I believe it will be a long one. Tony

Posted By Ian G Hutchings Peter It is an interesting debate and one I have found myself adding to. I wonder if we all look back have we ever found ourselves in a position where our action/actions could be construed as negligent? Maybe some of us are lucky that we have learnt from past mistakes and an omission has not led to any harm? I am not sure if we are ever as competent as we think we are. I know that it has taken me a few years to learn to say no and ask for help. I have worked with a variety of people with different qualifications and letters after their names. I have found that sometimes the best person to do the job could not be proven to be competent on paper; but also as I now manage my own business, I just can't take the risk, therefore a have to seek people who can demonstrate competence on paper, but they then have to demonstrate competence in action (under guidance and observation). Ian

Posted By Robert K Lewis I think we all need to remember that being negligent in one's actions on any particular day does not mean that we are necessarily incompetent. To demonstrate this one needs to establish a history of failing to meet anticipated standards. Alternatively the single failing is so gross as to be beyond what one would expect of a competent person. We also need to get away from believing that CMIOSH evidences competency in itself - it does not and cannot do so. It is a major issue that all employers, employees and self-employed have to face "How do I evidence my competence to do work". For construction this question will be more acute by next April with the inner meanings of regulation 4 concerning competency beginning to bite. Ultimately, as I have stated on other threads, all employers and the self employed are going to need to formalise the systems by which they demonstrate competency and its maintenance on an ongoing basis. I have spent the last few months looking at what the HSE are saying concerning competence management and to me it is clear that it will be one of the key issues for many years to come. We spend large sums of money on training and yet we cannot identify whether it was worthwhile or achieved its final objectives of promoting safer working. We cannot even assure clients and others that we can be confident our staff will perform competently at all times during work. Bob

Posted By Martin Mulholland The new Draft ACoP "Managing Health and Safety In Construction" - available on the HSE website discusses "Core Criteria for demonstration of Competence" in Appendix 4. Well worth a look to see the line that they are taking on this.

Posted By Steve B COMPETENCE, this has had a good hiding on this forum and I am sure in our own jobs from time to time. I believe we are all competent in certain aspects of our jobs and maybe other things we do, I am sure that we have all been questioned about our own competences during our working lives, a good measure of competence (personal opinion) is a H&S Professional admitting they cannot carry out a certain task because they themselves do not believe they are competent (if that makes sense). As for the NGC Bashers, well I have been working in full time H&S for approx 10 years now, I have completed the NGC Dip 1 and 2 and currently studying for my Msc but I can put my hand on my heart and say the NGC was the most difficult course I have ever completed.... so NGC Bashers heads up and be proud, but remember keep your feet firmly on the ground NGC G=General it is only the beginning. Waffle over Regards SteveB

Posted By Merv Newman Chris, I like your simile with a GP. I haven't had my business cards reprinted yet so, can I put down "Danger Doctoring" ? Merv

Posted By Nick Higginson NEBOSH certificate is an excellent qualification and has been one of the constants of our changing profession for many years. Competence is a dynamic concept and changes depending on a variety of factors. In terms of competence as a Health and Safety advisor, NEBOSH certificate may be perfectly acceptable in a relatively low risk environment (or even a higher risk environment if coupled with appropriate experience). I have seen Health and Safety Management systems devised by people with no formal qualifications that I thought were excellent, and ones devised by CMIOSH's that were poor. There is more to competence than Health & Safety qualifications and experience. A little common sense goes a long way.

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney What an interesting post. I know most of it has been said before but it still remains, and will remain an emotive subject. What is it then? Is it when you become CMIOSH you look down on lesser qualified beings? I think not; but I do think the NNGC holder will always have a place in H&S as a professional, it really does depend on the nature of their particular beast. I used to be 'just' a certificate holder, I had my distinction and I am still proud of it. I followed the NVQ route thereafter; are we going to say therefore that I am a less of a professional H&S practitioner because I did not do the diploma? I am currently 'grad' taken OA and await the much coveted CMIOSH. The thing is life is an ever evolving learning curve and I pick up something new most weeks, oh granted I probably knew it anyway but have forgotten the principals as I may not have used it for a while. Sorry wandered off a bit; the point I really wanted to make was, in certain industries a certificate holder would be fine, in others a higher qualification would be preferred; each to their own and know the limitations of oneself. CFT. BSc (hons) grad IOSH MIIRSM dip RSA

Posted By Dave Wilson Couldn't agree more charley! Its a big elephant and the NNGC is only the toenail so don't try and eat it all at once!