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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear All,
This is in response to a posting stating that "This is an informal chat forum" on the New Forum thread.
This and the other forums are not "chat rooms" - they are discussion forums. To quote the header above the AUG's "The discussion forums are intended for professional discussion and debate on a variety of issues relating to health and safety in the workplace." To that end it behoves us to act in a professional manner respecting other contributors and their point of views - even when we disagree! Chartered members of IOSH should note that they can be held to account for their postings if they breach the code of professional conduct.
We should remind ourselves that these forums are seen around the world and used by people outside of Britain and Ireland. As such we should take into account that people may be using English as a second language and may not want to be told to get a copy of ING 257 or an ACoP.
We should also consider that these forums are seen and used by journalists and the public at large to gauge the professionalism or lack-of-it of occupational health and safety practitioners.
Whilst I know that we all make mistakes and that no opinion is value free, I think that showing post nominal leters and membership status do help in gauging the worth of a posting and are not pretentious. If you've earned it you've a right to flaunt it!
I would like to suggest some "guidelines" to consider when posting on these forums:
- Read the question.
- Address the issue. Don't hijack the thread. Start a new thread if you think of a side issue that you consider worth discussing or debating.
- In addressing the question, form an argument to justify your position. It doesn't have to be an academic essay; just a reasoned argument. Every person has unique knowledge and experience - you may know or have considered something that nobody else has.
- Give references where possible to allow other readers to carry out some basic research if they wish to.
- If you disagree - Do not attack the person; attack the argument.
- Keep the response short and simple - but no shorter and simpler than it needs to be.
Regards Adrian Watson LLM MSc Dip Occ Hyg
CFIOSH FFOH MCIEH
Chartered Environmental Health Practitioner
Chartered Safety and Health Practitioner
Registered Occupational Hygienist
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
Adrian,
You make the point quite strongly that this is a discussion forum, not a chat room which is true.
However, you appear to be of the view that only IOSH members contribute to the discussions. This is a matter raised recently on the "membership issues forum" and I paste below a section of a contribution I made.
"This is an open forum that happens to be located on the IOSH web site. Those who contribute do not have to be members of the institution and there is no marker to indicate a contributors status (member/non member).
Other that the webmaster/ moderators, etc there is no way of knowing whether those whose contributions are less than professional are members or not.
That may be what is required in our charter (i.e. open access) and many non members may make a valuable contribution, but perhaps there should be a clear disclaimer indicating that the views expressed are not necessarily those of IOSH or its members."
As to you observation about post nominals, I disagree.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear Martyn,
I accept and agree with your your point that these forums are not "professional forums" and are open to all; long may it remain so as many guests make a valued and appreciated contribution. However, the people who are most likely to post-responses to requests for information about health and safety matters are IOSH members and it behoves them to act professionally.
I would appreciate your views on post nominal letters. Whilst, I understand and appreciate many people see posting nominal letters as elitist and snobbish and argue that it can put off people from posting responses, I believe that it can aid and assist in measuring the value of a response. However, post nominal letters and membership status are not guarantees of competence and "caveat emptor" must be the watch words when using any information found on the Internet.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Hands
Adrian,
I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post and I am sure you realise this has been said many times before.
The reality as I understand it, at the moment, is that this is an "open" forum available to anyone who wants to register. This is the nub of the whole issue for me. It is not controlled or managed except for the very essential moderation on line. Therefore, an unscrupulous person could claim any sort of post nominal and I do not think this is checked before allowing entry. (please, in no way do I suggest or imply that you are doing this, merely commenting on the possibility)
It cannot therefore either represent or meet a professional standard. I agree that this fact should be more prominently displayed on the forum pages. A disclaimer does appear on the webpage but it is not very visible.
We, as either users or viewers, have no way of knowing whether a post is from a person with a list of post nominals like yours or someone who is just trawling around and enjoys sparking a debate. There are clearly plenty who are happy to respond to such activity.
So, as I see it, we have two choices. The first is to accept this forum as a "chat" forum and makes certain that all who use it or view are in no doubt as to its purpose. The second is to place more control around the forum.
I think on balance, it is very healthy for IOSH to have this open forum and provided that concerns about the impact on the public image of H&S and IOSH can be more explicitly covered I think it should continue.
I also agree that it would be very helpful to know something of the person posting. Perhaps it may be possible to require the webteam to identify bona fide IOSH members (of all grades) from their approved log in details and then to require others to select a description from a list of possibilities when registering. Thus, an IOSH member would automatically appear as say "approved IOSH" and others as "other profession" "general interest" and so on. This is just an initial thought but it does seem to me to offer an improvement on the current situation. It would at least be possible to see at a glance who are members of IOSH 9of whatever grade) and who are not. Thus the integrity of the Institution and its members is clear and visible.
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
I can vouch for Adrian and his Post Nominals, I might not always agree with him but on this occasion I think he is right. Why not have a simple colour coding for the names. Those of CMIOSH in a different colour from those of CFIOSH or Grad IOSH for example. I think it will add to the feeling of elitism, but only amongst those that have a gripe with IOSH and cannot see the direction the Institution has to go. Of course this would not prevent the Troll and other issues as you get to choose your identity on here. As Adrian noted we work hard for these Post Nominals so why not use them to identify your academic achievement if not competence.
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Posted By Merv Newman
The guidelines from Adrian are generally reasonable, but is this an official IOSH posting ? There is no indication one way or the other.
I do occasionally attach my postnominals (well, most of them) when I feel that doing so is appropriate. But it is not a habit and takes too much extra typing
The suggestion from Tony is good : a visible indication of status and (presumed) trustworthiness, but that would absolutely have to come from IOSH. We should not be able to pick and choose (Monsieur Le Président Merv)
Past correspondence on "mass mailings" from iosh would indicate that such a level of discrimination may not be within the ken of the iosh IT department.
"IOSH approved" will most certainly not fly.
A prominent disclaimer might go a long way to "preserving the reputation"
One last thought (so far) : I feel that those who insult/flame/over react are lacking in the "people skills" so necessary when our whole reason for being (nearly said "raison d'être")(and didn't that give the spell checker a headache !) is to help improve and preserve the lives of those we work for. They'll not get on.
I know that's a bit pious. But it is true. And it is Sunday.
Merv
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Merv,
No it's not an official thread. It's just my own thoughts.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Merv Newman
Sorry, there was another last thought :
Again, may I please ask any "official" poster to insert a "prenominal" ? Who are you and what do you do ?
Virtually my only contact with IOSH is through the (what's it called, that magazine thingy ?) and this site. I visited the grange once about ten years ago. Met a secretary (? I really don't know !)who was organising the seminar. I think it was in a shed in the back garden.
Please, do not assume you are famous (Hi Hazel)
I do not know who you are. Please tell me.
Merv
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Posted By CW
I like this forum as it is helping me to build a better understanding of OHS whilst tackling the NEBOSH general certificate. My mind is now in the ‘zone’ of OHS no matter what I am doing, largely thanks to things I read on here.
Regards,
Col, nolettersaftermynameyet
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Have to strongly disagree. The use of post nominals in a chat forum or whatever you wish to call it smacks of elitism. It may provide a certain gravitas, but it may also discourage others from posting an opinion who do not have a dictionary after their name. The Forum is all the richer with a diversity of people and their opinions whatever their status.
If you feel the need to have letters dropping off the page, fine, use them where they belong - on business cards.
Ray
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Posted By Pete48
For me what is important to know on this forum is whether a person is an IOSH member or not. The grade of member is of no import to me because I recognise it as a totally open forum. I treat any post with great caution and am unlikely to rely upon anything written without further follow up either with the individual off forum or via other sources.
If I want to have a more structured exchange I would visit the members only area.
The importance of identifying "IOSH" people is so that we , or anyone else visiting the site, can clearly see which posts are from "IOSH" people and which are not. Thus concerns about the image projected can be covered and more overt pressure put on IOSH people to consider their responses dependant upon their status. I often wonder just how many understand the open nature of this part of our fora? (why does forums sound so much better!?)
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
A small IOSH logo next to the persons name would indicated there 'membership'(of whatever grade) and this could be controlled by requiring registration to the closed forums.
For me the important thing about identifying members is that unlike "Joe Public" IOSH members are bound by the "IOSH Code of Professional Conduct"
Also, my reason for for disliking the use of post nominals is the possible discouragement that may be felt by less experienced/qualified people from disagreeing with there peers.
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Posted By Brett Day
Personal opinion on postnominals is that they really mean very little.
Professionally I have been asked to site after a CMIOSH grade member had been banned for an absolute howler of a mistake.
I have had CMIOSH members criticise posts I have made on driving/road safety posts, yet these same members have approached me for driver safety related information of forum via e-mail. It might be because I am Police Class 1 trained, yet that is something that does not show up anywhere in terms of IOSH membership or post nominals.
It has been said on this thread that by posting post nominals the readers can gain an idea of the 'quality' of the post yet it has also be said that ultimately it is a case of 'caveat emptor' so in reality what use are these ???
Likewise I could be a TechIOSH but what is my field of competence? Construction? Manufacturing? Road Safety? Rail(LUL) ? Or all of the previous ?
Not all post nominals tell this and by no means does a grade of IOSH or other membership.
Does this alos mean that those without H&S credentials should have less weight attached to thier opinions? If so this is a worrying and divisive move for a forum that is supposed to be open and dare I say it encouraging to those who:
Are interested in starting a H&S career.
Have valuable information in response to a post who whilst not H&S qualified are experts in thier given field.
Those who are looking for safety information.
Brett Day Ex-TechIOSH, MIIRSM
IAM Advanced Driver
Police Class 1 Trained Driver
I know it looks silly doesn't it? But these are indicators to my competance.
Is this really what the forum is now about ???
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
Brett, You make some valid points. But so do others. The issue of the Code of Conducts is particularly valid. I therefore like the idea of IOSH logo indicating membership but not grade.
Regards
Tony
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Posted By IT
Whoops Sorry ,wrong thread ,thought this was about Guidelines on Forum Postings.
need to find that topic .
Although I do see the old chestnut ,lets tell everyone how important I am by the number of letters behind my name and by my association.
I must be important as I am IOSH Man ,and have many letters that tells you how important I am.
Elitist ,over the top and yes this is a PUBLIC open forum held on the IOSH site ,do you understand how many people would look at these type of posts and think that this is how all (alleged) Safety Professionals behave ,no wonder we have such a bad reputation.
I suppose when your at a party you introduce yourself by using your post nominals
Hi I am Tom I am a member of IOSH and have these letters behind my name ,you must trust me now as I have so many letters after my name.
I can see them all lining up and hanging off every word you say.
I believe IOSH put this as an open forum to demonstrate the level of discussion and knowledge amongst its members.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dear IT,
Thank you for your valued contribution and reasoned arguments.
Regards Adrian Watson
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Posted By IT
Good Morning Adrian,
There is so much knowledge, experience and depth in these forums.
I thought the contribution really fitted the discussion its almost as good as the ties.
Why do people come to this forum ?,too ask questions and seek help (debate has already occurred about information sharing),they come here because of that level of knowledge and depth. Not because of the colour of your writing ,IOSH logo or the letters after your name ,it is by all means the professional answers that are sought.
why can't people be satisfied with imparting their knowledge to assist others members or not,which in turn strengthens this Profession.
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Posted By Chris Packham
As someone who is not an IOSH member and has no intention of becoming one, I have followed this thread with interest and some concern.
I believe that I can rightfully claim to be recognised by many as having a specialised expertise in just one specific aspect of health and safety. It is an aspect in which I have specialised now for over 26 years (and one where IOSH members often need to learn a great deal more than is covered in the training they receive).
To become an IOSH member I would have to study a whole range of subjects that would not help me in my work whatsoever and would require time that I can better allocate to developing my knowledge and expertise in my particular field.
Does this make me someone whose contribution to this forum is less valuable:
(a) because I am not an IOSH member, and
(b) because I cannot put letters after my name?
Actually, I can: FRSH, FInstSMM, MCMI, MIIRSM, MBICSc - but what does this mean in relation to my special expertise?
Chris
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Posted By gham
What value does displaying post nominals after your name bring to the reader.
What if the reader decided to take the advice of a person using post nominals (who has given duff advise) over for example me (who never gives duff advice, I am always right) just because the have letters after their name and how does the reader know that the post nominals are being used genuinely
This is a public forum, meaning not exclusive to members, keep it for the members only area and refrain from such gratuitous displays of self gratification in public, it does not favours for the stuffy image the trade already has.
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Posted By GeoffB4
I'm with the last three posters.
First of all despite what has been said this is a CHAT FORUM.
Secondly it is not net etiquette to post letters after names either on these types of forums or emails.
Thirdly, do some of you guys realise how pompous it looks and sounds to do so?
And fourthly, I'm sorry if this doesn't come under your well reasoned argument definition Adrian, but sarcasm doesn't help either your messages or others and in fact detracts from them.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Chris,
It does add value knowing that you are a fellow of the Royal Society of Health, & the Society of Sales and Marketing and a member of the Chartered Management Institute, International Institute of Risk and Safety Management and the British Institute of Cleaning Science.
Like every thing, context gives things meaning.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Chris Packham
Adrian
Perhaps these postnominals indicate a certain professional standing, but do they actually say anything about the level of expertise in a particular aspect of health and safety?
I agree that postnominals do indicate a certain commitment to complying with ethical standards and for that reason could be helpful in assessing the value of advice, but again I would counsel caution.
As someone with a particular interest in matters pertaining to skin in the working environment, I frequently encounter situations where a worker has consulted his GP and where the GP's advice has not been correct. Here we have a registered medical practitioner and someone with no medical qualifications at all who disagree (and usually advice from a dermatologist shows that I was right!). Where does this leave the question of qualifications?
Chris
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Chris,
I agree with your points. However, by knowing that the person is a doctor I know one thing and by knowing that he is/is not a specialist in a particular area I know two things.
I agree that the fact that the fact that a person is/is not a doctor or a specialist does not make the person correct. Therefore, the fact that a person has post nominal does not make a person correct, but it does allow me to evaluate and judge the information that the person has provided against information from other sources.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Descarte
So posts with more/highest numbers of letters after them are most worth reading, most reliable or worth while having on the forum? So posts with no letters after there name are not worth reading?
Then why not just delete all none MIOSH's from posting and have only these people allowed to post.
Oh wait thats what the members forum is for.
That and the fact your insinuating that merely a qualification or title can represent competence?
Oh dear not this old chestnut again
Des
NSPCC, RSPB, BASC
(^ WoW those non UK as you say who read this forum will think I'm super)
Ps sorry for the harsh remarks but please believe me this is an attack on the topic not on your self
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Posted By David Bannister
I'm with the "name only" argument. Letters may indicate an academic achievement and/or experience but do not preclude valuable or unique contributions from any other user of the forums.
I use these for a variety of reasons: a simple need for specific info, background on a more complex subject, willingness to assist others, desire to challenge views that contradict my own and importantly just a means of communicating with others with similar professional interests (Oh - and entertainment too).
I don't think that knowing what letters a contributor has after their name assists me in this.
Best wishes to all
David DIK.ED
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Posted By gham
"who gave you the advice"
I was this bloke on the IOSH web site deputy advocate
"why did you feel that this was suitable advice"
Cause deputy advocate he had DIK.Ed post nominals after his name
"ahh, no more questions your honour"
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Posted By Chris Ivan
hi -
with regards to this forum, there is a new website launched today created where you can exchange messages with other friends in safety privately - so if you wish to communicate only with MIOSH members , or with people from your industry, or with your client base or safety reps, you can do so, via private messages.
email me for details as i dont want to breach AUGS by posting it here
best regards
Chris
(now proud holder of Technician status, for what its worth!)
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Posted By J Knight
Personally I support the no post-nominals stand on this forum; I use my post-nominals on my work email but that is to indicate that, as far as safety is concerned, my employer has taken the trouble to recruit somebody who has some external moderation on their competence. However, I don't feel that it necessarily adds value in this context as too many other variables influence somebody's expertise on a particular subject. As I have said before, I may have some letters after my name, but I am not an expert on construction or rail safety; ask me about health and social care and you might get an answer worth listening too. And it is sometimes impossible to capture those additional variables in any type of post-nominal designation; how could you indicate the lifetime in retail that my colleague here has? Yes, he has an MBA, and is a member of IM, but what really makes the difference in the service he delivers to our retail arm is his deep and sympathetic understanding of the business. So, keep it polite, keep it professional, and apply a reality check to any advice you chose to follow,
John
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
Whilst Adrian's original posting has sparked considerable debate on post nominals' the other points he made are being given less attention.
This forum is an open forum yet I am sure that to an outside observer, because it is hosted on the IOSH web site, the views expressed (correct or incorrect) will be given credence as coming from IOSH or its members. This should be a matter of concern as our public face can be affected by outside contributors.
In my opinion there is not a clear enough indication on the actual forum page to indicate to the casual viewer that this is an open forum the content of which IOSH has little control.
It is beneficial to have views from non members and I am not suggesting that IOSH members are infallable, or non members views are always wrong. However, I have seen examples where the advice given clearly did not comply with the law yet the reader has no idea whether the person posting the advice has the NEBOSH Diploma; Certificate; attended a one day training course or less.
It is for that reason that I believe a disclaimer is required at the top of every page.
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Posted By Descarte
I believe advice generated and presented on this forum should only ever offer the basis or part of a substantial investigation into any subject area where the question resides.
It is a useful source of ideas and opinions, helpful links to other sources and REGULATORY guidance.
I would never do or say anything wholly based on what I have read on these forums or on something I heard down the pub without seeing it in the regs or another suitable place first.
It is maybe also for that reason post nominals should not be used. For the general public the word of a registered GP would suffice, perhaps that would be perceived for the advice of a CMIOS I dont know.
Des
Any references to anyone or anything in this post is purely fictitious and any resemblance to safety issues or people, living or dead is purely coincidental
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Posted By Merv Newman
OK. Adrian's thread has been effectively hijacked into a prolonged discussion of just one of the points he made (avoiding hijacking was another)
Apart from the postnominals do we agree with everything else he said ? (go back to the top of the page and read his post again please)
And what about my request for prenuptials ?
Merv
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Posted By gham
There is nothing new in Adrians original post, a regurgitation of post wich are published every second week and again the same arguments over again
The post nominals is evidently a contentious subject which is why is has been discussed the thread has not been hijacked the issue was in the original post. Discussing tonight's menu for example would be hijacking
The rest can be concluded upon review of the AUG's and the professional code of conduct.
Aside from that the original post and has provided for a healthy debate which has probably brought some sense of "excitement" to an otherwise wet and dull Monday morning, well done everyone
(yes this is as exciting as it get for me!)
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Posted By Descarte
Posted same time as Gham.
and the links are similar topics this past month alone on the same subject or very similar on a quick search on a single key word.
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Posted By Tabs
Avoid hijacking. Hmmm. A forum continually develops onto different tacks - that is what happens in conversation, especially when the subject is brought up as part of the original post. It is natural.
I for one am very divided on the post-nominals, tending to use them when replying to colleagues about my subject - but not when replying to personal emails. It could be the same here that when you wish to make a point, rather than to discuss, you could include your PN's ... when I see my signature with all that gubbins on the end of it, my mind goes through the professional standards check. "Is this really 100%?" whilst other responses may be a little less rigid.
I like the logo idea. The problem is that IOSH (that's you and me folks) would be underwriting all opinion, and I don't think that is good. We already see people attacking the IOSH grade of CMIOSH when a mistake is made. Why open it up any further?
Keep it simple and keep your PN's for any email you send directly giving advice - if you feel the need to show your experience do so privately and directly...
Just a thought.
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
I don't think that by indicating that a contribution is made by a 'member' IOSH is underwriting what is said. In fact we have the worst of both worlds at the moment as a non member looking for some assistance is likely to assume that all contributions are made by IOSH members. Hence my comments about the disclaimer being upfront at the top of every forum.
At the moment there is a disclaimer, it doesn't identify that this is a open forum and it is at the bottom of the front page. Many people will never get to the bottom of the page as by then they will have clicked onto the forum they are interested in.
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Posted By peter gotch
Hi All,
Part way through my 12 years with HSE, we were offered the chance to put letters onto our calling cards.
I took the view that this would create an unnecessary barrier to communication, when I was talking to e.g. a construction site labourer, so I did not take up the offer.
Taken similar view since joining a technical and management consultancy until last year the organisation forced me to put SOME letters on my calling cards. But still only have my academic qualifications and do not intend to put CFIOSH or MIIRSM.
In practice, our clients usually know that I have these memberships cos they have probably got my CV.
So there's my stand on this!!
Regards, Peter
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Posted By Tony Brunskill
Is the issue one of elitism or allowing the reader to evaluate the credibility of the information posted? Credibility might be brought about or lost by a number of attributes. Technical qualification OR experience, expertise, hobby horse, passion (now there's a word I did not think I would use here), crusade.
Perhaps the answer is to provide an option of member profiles. Where each contributor can post as much or as little information as they so wish. This could!!! include post nominals for those that wish to use them, a pen picture outlining experience, etc.
The value is the forum member gets the choice of what to include if anything, the reader has the opportunity to look at the credibility of the poster, we all stop bickering and get on with helping one another so improving the Institution.
Post Nominls are not a test of competence but they do indicate a level of knowledge, training and understanding which can be a starting point.
Tony NAAFI & Bar
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Posted By Brett Day
Most forums have a 'members profile' section normally a link after the posters name that can be clicked on and brings up all that the poster wants to put about themselves. I think that would be the best place for PN's.
As an aside and at the risk of hijacking, I've been helping a friend get into safety, he's read this and other forums and has already decided tha he will not be posting here, and if he can get work without it he will not be taking up IOSH membership.
His view of IOSH through these forums is that as an organisation and parts of the membership are to use his words 'one of the worst examples of elitism and snobbery he has seen on a forum'.
To be balanced he has pointed out that certain posters do seem to know what they are about and enjoy reading thier posts.
I have not told him about my views on IOSH and have urged him to get membership as soon as he gets his quals.
It's going to be interesting to hear his opinion when he reads this post. Another person dissillusioned, without even joining.
Are we failing as members, as an organisation to encourage H&S, new members? Only time will tell.
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Posted By gham
I've put off joining because i can't fit the letters on my business card!
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