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Posted By oneill
Hi All,
Can the cost of PPE be born on employees at all???? Say for example an employee was constantly forgetting their PPE or losing it, what would the answer be, could the employer charge employee for the constant re-issuing of PPE???????????????
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Posted By Edward Shyer
why not introduce a procedure to prevent PPE being taken away from the workplace. It would also be a good idea to provide for storage of PPE.
Ted
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Posted By David Bannister
Many building sites have notices stating " NO PPE = NO WORK" However this is no doubt being applied to self-employed labour.
The situation with direct employees is more complex. You don't say what the PPE is but assuming that it is personal issue and reusable (ie not single use disposable) then perhaps your disciplinary procedures need to be invoked for persistent offenders. Are they genuinely forgetting or is it a game? Is there some other reason for the unwillingness to use the supplied PPE? Have you considered a behavioural approach?
Sorry, no definitive answer although I understand that PPE can not be charged to the employees.
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Posted By Pete48
O'neill,
Is it reasonable to ask someone to take reasonable care of something provided for their safety? Yes.
Is it possible to establish reasonableness for standards of care? Yes.
Can you charge them for the ppe just because they consistently fail to look after it? I don't think so but perhaps more importantly I would not want to; no guarantee that they would keep it any longer and the risk of working without it remains.
Can you counsel or discipline them? Yes.
This looks to me like an HR matter with safety related failures as the evidence for action.
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Posted By Merv Newman
Forgotten or lost PPE is grounds for sending them home until they find it. At their expense.
And keep 'em in after school to make up for the lost time. (within working hours regs, of course)
Merv
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Posted By Steve B
Quick answer.... No you cannot charge, however it could cost them as stated above NO PPE NO WORK... in a previous job steel toe cap boots where compulsory, I have and would again send people home to get the correct ppe on, trust me they only do it once.
obviously there are genuine occasions, but the way I see it we give the advice and put these control measures in place, as above it is up to HR on the discipline front and let managers manage it that is what they are paid for.
Regards
Steve
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Posted By anon1234
Agree you can't charge.
Consider providing safe secure storage at the workplace for the PPE and don't allow them to take it home.
If they are mobile workers i.e. no fixed work site, then provide then we a suitably sized PPE holdall to keep it all safe in - ensuring there are sufficient compartments to prevent muddy boots contaminating everything etc - obviously number of compartments will be dependant on the type and quantity of PPE they need. Note you don't need seperate compatments for each item of equipment
If they continue to 'lose it' I suggest you look further into this - they may for example lose their boots very frequently but never seem to have put the brand new issued pair on!
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Posted By ian (fingaz)
no you can not be charged for PPE but in some cases ithink you should be. i.e: keep losing it
and depending on what PPE you are using it should be replaced i.e gas mask breathing apparatus ect. there should be a date on this PPE.
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Posted By Darren J Fraser
There cannot be a charge for PPE, however you may wish to consider a system/scheme I came across a few years ago.
Basically all PPE was issued with a shelf life (E.g. safety boots - 2 years under normal conditions, if working with caustic soda then 3 months life, etc).If you needed a replacement before the shelf life had expired it was on a new for old system, if you had lost or misplaced the item, it was replaced, but a donation was made by the employee to the charity box, each piece of PPE having a fixed cost (E.g. safety boots £5, gloves £1 etc), payment was deducted directly from salary after employee had agreed to amount and signed an authorisation document to that effect.
Apparently this worked very well, with no-one complaining about the donation, and the unions actively encouraged the system/scheme.
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Posted By anon1234
Darren,
nice idea but how do you deal with the situation where someone refuses to make the 'donation' - you can't enforce it, otherwise it is the same as charging
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Posted By AJM
Well I did mention this one a while ago I work for a company that has a list up with safety footwear going from £12 to £27 they allow £20 for your pair as usual the ones any good are above £20 like me for instance paid £7 because I wanted brogues.
From what you all say this must be illegal too or is this a way round the legalities.
Alan
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Posted By anon1234
The important thing is that the PPE is fit for purpose and is also good for fit.
i.e. one solution may not be suitable for all employees
I think that what AJM (it was AJM I think, forgot to take a note before replying) is saying is not illegal if you can get appropriate PPE within the allowances - but how do you prove this? for example I could say I need the more expensive footwear as the less expensive (not necessarily cheap) footwear causes me blisters
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Posted By AJM
So Anon by that way of thinking a company could have one pair on a list at £9 all others above £10 then say all employees who want shoes above £10 must pay extra out their own pocket.
If this is still legal, then where do you draw the line the other way. Isnt it as simple as its free or it isnt that is how you get away from Grey areas.
Alan
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Posted By holmezy
AJM,
its normal and acceptable for companies to provide PPE to a nominal value, providing the available PPE is fit for purpose. Any requirements above that value can be charged the difference. If you say that all PPE is free, then with footwear for example you may find that all the employees are walking around in "top of the range" Caterpillar boots or some similar fashionable name at £70 per pair.
Unless cost is not an issue at your company????
Holmezy
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Posted By AJM
No you miss my point I agree you have to have a limit I am saying the limit should be reasonable to be able to get descent PPE. For Instance I later found out that another company was doing the same brogues for £13 not the £27 the employees and me were charged this is where you get into the immoral as well as the illegal argument.
Also no its the opposite where i work money is like getting blood out of a stone.
Alan
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Posted By Pete48
The schemes you are thinking about are probably those where more than one style of shoe or boot meets the identified risk management criteria and the company is happy to support employees who may prefer to have a different style and usually more expensive boot.
Whether this is strictly legal is a point for debate. The company has selected and identified the kit that is issued free as part of their ppe policy. They then, in non-confrontational co-operation with individual employees, allow them to subsidise a more expensive style that they prefer to wear. The key success point being that the "free" kit has to be to a acceptable standard and is demonstrably reasonable to use. If not, then you have a potential problem of being accused of charging for usable kit by the back door.
The risks of the message getting lost in bigger organisations are pretty obvious but otherwise it can work very well. Many would not entertain it due to additional management time it imposes and the risks of being misinterpreted by either employees or the enforcing authorities or both.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
There's no such thing as free PPE.
The cost of same is part of the operating costs of the company, which effectively reduces the profit. This affects the amount of pay, and the concomitant rises of such.
Presumably, in-yer-face charging is against regulations, but behind-yer-back is ok.
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Posted By rjhills
No, you cannot charge
employees for PPE.
But......
PPE Risk assessment....+
Written wk. procedures..+
employee training....+
Signed receipt for PPE +
Record of training.....+
"Behaviour" agreement...
(I have read and understood
that PPE a requirement for
task, and declare I will
follow above procedures...+
Superviory monitoring....+
Gentle "chat" for first
time no PPE.
Sterner chat subsequent..+
HR involvement to follow..+
If no effect "Bye bye, it
was a shame to have to let
You go!!!
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Posted By Robert Weiland
We have a rule "if you forget your ppe you go home to fetch it unpaid".
Seems to work.
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Posted By David MacFarlane
Our Company has a system in place that allows employees to upgrade any part of their issued PPE for instance, a lot of our site operatives tend to want to choose their own safety boots, we have a standard boot we offer them and they have the cost of that boot to go towards their own choice. We generally let them pay £5 per week directly out of their wage until payed off.
However, should any employee lose of deface issued PPE - they are asked to replace it at their own cost!!! Paying back in the manner mentioned above.
This may sound harsh, however its proved an excellent deterrent.
DM
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Posted By oneill
Hi All
Thank you for all your responses! I appreciate it. General thought seems to be getting the written signature for PPE, which was not fully in place prior to this.
Thanks again
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