Posted By J Knight Hi Toecap, It is guidance but it is definitely a H&S management system. I have been trained by RoSPA to use their QSA H&S Audit tool; this is based on HSG65 as a management system, though more recent versions also incorporate elements of OHSAS 18000 and ISO 14000 (I know that's the environment, but there you go). Managing Safely and NEBOSH also regard HSG65 as a management system. Finally, it is the standard against which HSE will measure your internal H&S management if you are subject to investigation. For all these reasons it is a management system, John

Posted By Steve Sanders I think it's guidance on a model for a safety management system. I don't think its a very good model, as it requires the safety organisation to be in place prior to planning how or what it is trying to achieve. That said, a lot of organisations have used it quite successfully. Steve

Posted By The toecap Thanks guys, some very interesting thoughts. I was of the opinion that it wasn't quite a management system but, having read through some thought stimulating material, perhaps i've changed my mind.

Posted By Steve Sanders John, The HSG 65 model requires an organisation to develop a safety policy, then organise by putting a management structure and arrangements in place to fulfil that policy, then plan how it will fulfil the policy. Surely the correct approach is Policy, Plan, Organise? Develop policy, plan how it is to be fulfilled, then put in place structure and arrangements to fulfil the plan? Steve

Posted By Steve Sanders Logical may have been a better work than correct. The point of any business system model is to provide a template – a road map – allowing the creation of a workable system. I think there can be accurate models that can be applied to real world situations. My point is that to create the system you must decide what you are trying to achieve (policy), identify what has to be done to achieve it (plan), then you can put a structure and arrangement in place for its archival(organise). HSG 65 requires you to decide what you are trying to achieve (policy), put a structure and arrangement for its achievement in place (organise), the identify what has to be done to achieve it (plan). I think the cart is before the horse with HSG 65. I'm not saying that it is of no use just that there are better models. Steve

Posted By J Knight Vernon, I agree entirely; bigendians v littlendians, John