Posted By mark limon Like some of the very many Nebosh GC holders I have found attending the course has awakened ambitions in me that were never there before. I do notice now and again that some contributors to these forums have seem to have an "oh its another nebosher posting"attitude and their replies seem to reflect this. I think that people who have been and still are at the sharp end of Health and Safety should be shown more encouragement to realise their ambitions. I have over 30 years(from age 16) experience of working in heavy industry. In that time I attended courses run by H/S "experts" who had never worked or even set foot in a heavy indusrial setting or high risk environment .They run a course from a set script and powerpoint presentation and in my experience struggle to relate to the people they are talking to. I always found that when the person presenting the course had similar or even just general shopfloor experience they were taken a lot more seriously. Its all well and good explaining the 5 steps to risk assessment from a script,I think its much better if they have actually done one. There are excellent professional course presenters out there with oodles of letters after there names and certificates on their office walls and good luck to them because to get the letters I know they will have had to work very hard to acheive them. There are also very many highly experienced men with no letters after their name who know more about real life H/S,about how to do a effective risk assessment,about how work safely in a high risk environment than many of the office bound pontificators on here who while away their days picking faults with postings instead of offering encouragement. Mark Limon ,new techIOSH probably confusing ambition with ability

Posted By Tommy Cooper You really are on the spot Mark. Are you referring to Vernon, who always insults people and refers to them as NEBOSHers. Just because he is possibly one of the most qualified users on this forum does not give him the right to abuse others. I totally agree with you Mark Lemon

Posted By Peter Longworth It's not just Vernon, although to be fair his user name does seem to have been hi-jacked, it's the whole ethos of this forum. It does seem that if you can't punctuate each post with a whole string of post-nomials then, to some, your opinions are worthless. Similarly, if an individual mentions that they "ONLY" have the certificate and work for a consultancy, then this somehow must be something to be concerned about. People are employed on the basis of their ability to meet an employer's needs. If the employer is happy that the required service is being delivered in a competent way, what business is it of anybody else. My view is this. Concentrate on doing your own job to the best of your ability, and if someone asks for advice on a particular subject, give that advice if you feel you are able to. Leave the judgements on other people out of it all together.

Posted By Tommy Cooper I believe ALL messages posted on the forum should be screened by a MODERATOR prior to posting. That was people will not have to filter through the insults, repeated messages and poor content. I am sure users of the forum would not mind waiting perhaps half an hour for a response to be posted if it means that the posts are all relevant. What do others think???

Posted By ITK Mark a very well thought out and presented argument, most of which I agree with. People who have done the NEBOSH Cert (myself included) realise it is certainly no walk in the park, however, competency plays a huge part in Health and Safety and a lot of employers who can afford a Health and Safety advisor often require much higher qualifications. This is not the same as saying NEBOSH cert holders dont know what they are doing. I thought I knew a lot about Health and safety when I passed the certificate but when I started Diploma I realised how little I knew. You may be extremely lucky in obtaining a full time position with the cert, and I hope you do, unfortunately I and many others were not. Good Luck.

Posted By Jonathan Breeze Fair points Mark, however I have a few niggling questions which your post raises... 1) Is there anything wrong with ambition? 2) How would you measure ability? I've got a horrible feeling about where this is going, but I'll ask anyway.

Posted By ITK Mark I did the same as you in 1999, I was lucky enough to land a full time Health and Safety position after completing my Diploma and I am now extremely honoured to be a Chartered Member of our Institution. If you dip (no pun intended) into the closed forums you will see I have recently advocated a TechIOSH position on the IOSH council. ITK

Posted By Jim Walker Mark, You are quite right. So long as you remember competence is understanding your limitations you'll not go far wrong. Any responder to posts should realise this forum is about helping people at all abilities. I really hate sneery remarks and frequently jump in when I see people making them. Just a small observation: when I started to get involved in H&S (this is my 3rd career!), like most people I did the Cert. When I had passed, God! I thought I was good! Now some 15 years later, I realise what a naive little I was. The more I learn, the more I realise how little I know. It has to be said the Cert is a low (but vitally necessary) rung on the ladder of learning. I'm not going to say competence as that plus experience is perfectly satisfactory for the vast amount of H&S roles.

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney Jim With the utmost respect I feel you were just a tad unfair on the reference to 'low' rung on the ladder for the NGC, although I agree with vital & necessary. There are many courses available that would perhaps give an insight into this world of H&S and perhaps be truly titled 'humble beginnings'. CFT

Posted By David Bannister Tommy Cooper, I am opposed to the introduction of any delay on this forum. One of its strengths to me is the speed of response that is often achieved. (Clearly H&S people do nothing all day except chat here). If sometimes the response is nasty and sharp then who is exposed as the nasty one or buffoon? To anyone who has delivered any training to an awake audience this is just all in a day's work and has to be accepted as part of human interaction.

Posted By Tabs I was doing H&S long before I knew what it was. I had a career change and studied a degree in H&S only to find that a good part of my engineering experience was directly transferable to H&S. So I tend to agree that a lack of a qualification may not be a good indicator of ability - but then the presence of a few post-nominals (you wrote you didn't know what that was, it is the correct name for letters after your name) is a good indicator that you might know something. A great lecturer will have experience of all levels of employment, and most types of occupation... but then there will only ever be a few 'great' lecturers/trainers. Most often we have to accept that people who are good in one field or other are still trying to be helpful to those in other fields. Great trainers should cost more - do you always go to the top end of the market for your training? You make some good points, but you should also remember that nothing in a title or job description actually endowes anyone with ability. You will meet great people, and you will meet not-so-great people. If people on the forum stopped talking about membership levels, and qualifications, and instead spoke of experience and knowledge, there would be less 'bashing' and more learning. My opinion (value? 2'/6d ... if I remember the designations correctly).

Posted By Tabs Mark: er, yes, but can't two people make the same point here? :-) There was me thinking you'd like some support....

Posted By Medusa Afternoon all, I have to say that this is the first posting that I have seen on here for a while that I agree with 100%. As a relative newbie to H&S (Yes I am a lowly NEBOSHER , managed to get my first safety job straight away and have spent my time learning from the real experts - ie the guys who DO the job) I initially thought that this forum was a god-send. As I work on a decommissioned power plant there are many aspects that I would not be completely familiar and make no apologies for that. I always thought that the first rule of H&S was to know your own limitations and when to seek advice. This is when I discovered this forum. However as Mark has correctly stated, many who use this forum as a platform to show off or however you want to put it, at the expense of others and to be honest with you I've given up. Now I only look at this forum every once in a while. I'm frustrated that whenever someone new ventures on here, the responses start of fairly positively and then quickly descends into a slanging match along the line of "I know more that you" or "What do you mean you don't know that???!? Are you really sure you can call yourself competant?!? How can you sleep at night?". A)Isn't that a form of bullying and B) And we honestly wonder why people struggle to take H&S seriously. Sometimes its like a bunch of kids in a playground. Sorry if this sounds overly harsh. Please dont misunderstand. The responses I have personally had on this forum to my queries have been positive, helpful and informative. Rant over. Must stay off the coffee. But to sum up Mark, Spot on mate 100%

Posted By DP Good post Mark. Most of the names posted here respond on a regular basis offering sound advice to others wanting it. Lets all make a conscious decision to add postings in just those cases. Not forgetting the jokes of course. If we don't fuel it!!!!

Posted By Pete48 Mark, Spot on and I hope that generally people do get support on this forum. We need to remember sometimes I think that none of us are totally adept at the written word and this can sometimes lead to misinterpreting the intent behind a posting. This can happen both ways and sometimes, (just sometimes that is!) us old salts with a few letters behind our names do have wider experience but just don't make a very good job of putting it over on this forum. One thing I do know is that however many letters you have or how competent you feel you are, you can always meet someone with more of both. Keep coming back Mark I just ignore the obviously odd posts. "Sticks and stones."

Posted By Tony Brunskill Mark, On here you will always get the "Competence" argument. It is the nature of the beast, but that beast is not just H&S it happens in Engineering, Accountancy, Medical, Clerical and any other profession you care to mention. There is always a risk of the unknown. As individuals develop their competence they begin to understand how little they acually know or understand. This happens from Managing Safely to MSc and beyond. None of us are expert in all matters and the key to competence is knowing where your limits are not the piece of paper hanging in your office. Stick with it and be honest and you will not go far wrong. Tony