Posted By Jonathan Sandler CMIOSH
Here is an interesting view from the hse:
I would like to comment on this debate again.

I fully agree with the view of Andy Allan. In this debate we must remember
that CDM has been redrafted . We must all therefore review how we have
been working, draw a line under it and move on. It is not business as usual. If it was we would not have spent a substantial amount of time and money addressing problems with CDM that were highlighted by industry

HSE inspectors will be instructed to take an assertive view on excessive and unnecessary paper work.We must remeber that only three items are named and required, F10 notification, Construction phase plan on how the work will be managed on site and the File to record information that will be helpful.

Designers are expected to eliminate hazards SFAIRP and in conjunction with other design considerations They are not expected to do and record risk assessment. We have been very clear in the 2001 ACOP and repeated at
paragraph 113 in the new draft that the requirement in the Management
Regs does not carry across for the production of designs.

CDM is about doing, making a difference and reducing the total amount of health and safety risk in a project. It should not be about developing defensive positions. In the statistically very unlikely event of enforcement action the test is on what you actually did not what you recorded.

I cannot agree with David B assertion and views of this nature is why we
have re drafted CDM. Designers are expected to eliminate hazard not
record them. Designers do not have to devise and make known and record safe systems of work that is for the P/ Contract. Designers have to show a suggested construction sequence showing how the design can be erected safely when this is not obvious ie this refers to unusual, novel , one off designs where a designers needs to inform the PC on one way on how it can be built safely. How it is actual done is the responsibility of the PC.

There will be serious issues of competence with the new role of coordinator and we do not expect H and S professionals to expect 'relevant' documents
when they are not required. Coordination of design work will fall to the
new role of the Coordinator who will have understanding of the design
process.

We are very clear that with CDM we wish to ensure a sensible approach to risk managment .

Hope you find the above of interest.
Regards

Posted By Ron Hunter
The post that Jonathan has pasted over from the HSe's CDM Forum is not entirely helpful and misses a most significant aspect of CDM, i.e. the Information Note (pre-tender H&S Plan as was). It remains the duty of the Co-ordinator (P.S. as was) to gather together info from the client and designers and info about pertinent risks arising from the site and environment, all of which the competent contractor could not be expected to know about.
Robert, my feeling is that CDM07 is more about an enhanced duty on the Client & other duty holders to ensure competency and a recognition by all parties that any one individual cannot be expert in all things. From a practical perspective then, the question may boil down to who's details are added in the F10. Inserting the name of an individual ( unless this is a very exceptional individual!) would not seem to satisfy the true spirit & meaning of CDM?
By all means direct people to the [reference removed], and to the site for draft Regs and ACoP (http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/update.htm), but I would personally prefer if we could avoid cutting and pasting across the 2 Forums.

Posted By J Knight
Hi Folks,

I'm currently ploughing through these docs so I can brief our development bods. I don't see how designers can avoid some sort of assessment of risks. The paragraph Jonathon refers to states that if designers comply with a particular regulation in CDM they will have complied with Reg 3 Mgt Regs. OK, all well and good, but the cited regulation in CDM requires them to avoid foreseeable risks (SFARP of course). How can they do this without risk evaluation? In other words, risk assessment? They may not have to provide a piece of paper labelled RISK ASSESSMENT but they still have to assess risks,

John

Posted By Dave McIness
Holyterror72

I agree with you.

There are a lot of people making out that CDM 2007 is going to be a completely new animal - it is not!

CDM 2007 is effectively a modified and tweaked version of CDM 1994 (with the addition of the CHSWR96 pulled in for good measure), yes there are changes and new requirements, but for pity's sake I cannot understand why people are getting so worked up about it.

My personal belief is that because many (but not all) members of IOSH are not fully conversant with CDM 1994, or for that matter the working of the construction AND design industries in general. From reading these forums there seems to be shear panic when in my opinion there is no need for it.

Hopefully the new regs will sort out some of the old problems and force some of the existing inadequate PS's into retirement, but in essence, I do not think that much will change when the regulations are introduced in April 2007.

Dave

Posted By Crim
From a personal point of view I agree that CDM has been with us for the past 11 years or so and the new Regs although being different are really very similar to the 1994 version.

I have read the draft Statutory Instrument for the 2007 Regs and found it quite easy to understand, probably because I have been involved in construction safety for the past 8 years, (Principle Contractor with some Planning Supervisor work thrown in - small projects only), it's when I read through the draft ACOP that the grey areas and debating points come in.

Can I ask for input from persons who are directly involved with CDM from the different areas i.e. Planning Supervisors to make their views known on the new Co-ordinator role, likewise Designers, and those of us who operate for Principle Contractors.

If people could indicate which area they are in it may help.

One observation I have is the requirement for all site personnel to have received instruction in the correct use of fire equipment. This comes accross from the Construction H S & Welfare Regs. but is new to CDM. I feel this is a missed opportunity as construction sites could have been brought into the recent fire safety order and been subjected to fire risk assessment - instead we have to train to "shut the stable door after the horse has bolted".

Finally will the association of Planning Supervisors still exist beyond April 2007? (Or whatever date the Regs come into force). Or will they change the name to fit the title in the new Regs?

Posted By Crim
Thanks for the input, more please.

I am usually asked for the CDM H & S Plan with less than a few days notice. Sometimes the day before work starts on site. I also sometimes know of a project starting before the PS does.

Hopefully this will all change with the new Regs.

(Just looking at the sky for flying you know what).

Posted By holyterror72
We should do Ken, yes.

Posted By Crim
The posts on this topic, especially in the past 2 hours all agree that change is needed and that we all need more time ahead of a project so that we can get our necessary pre project work done. The problem is - if we're not careful and there is no-one to force the new Regs on Clients Coordinators and Principle Contractors nothing will change and we might as well just keep the old CDM regs.

The question is - how can we be assured that the new CDM 2007 will be effected properly and how will they be Policed?

Posted By Crim
We have had lots of views from Planning Supervisors and Principle Contractors but what about the Client. If there are any Clients looking at the thread please can we have some input?

My work is mainly shop fitting and an example from me is that frequently the Principle Contractor is made aware of a project start date with just a few days notice, that's when I get involved and have to prepare the CDM Plan. I then have to chase the P S for the Pre Tender Plan and the P S chases the Client and so on. (Tail wagging the dog?)

There is also too little time given for the project to be completed, I understand that the Client is not making any profit while his store is closed and he wants it open again ASAP. This puts pressure on the P C to rush the work which in turn places all workers at risk.

Question 1. How does the Client become aware of the CDM regs 2007?

Question 2. Will the new Regs make any difference to the Client's attitude? The Client is paying the P S so does the P S have the confidence to question the Client's attitude?

Question 3. Will the HSE inspector ever question a Client about his attitude towards CDM and health and safety?

Posted By Crim
Holy Terror

I agree with your answers to 1, and 2. but I have Clients that work for "frequent construction clients", who have rolling programmes for shopfitting and don't notify their P S when they want a project to start. I can't see them altering their ways "just because someone has brought out new Regulations"?

When this happens I inform my client who just accepts the work and start the job at short notice anyway. Sometimes without the CDM Plan? Even the P S doesn't want to see the CDM Plan any more.

Posted By holyterror72
Crim,

I'm glad I don't have Clients as 'passive' as yours. Its all seen as a nonsense till something goes wrong as we all know.