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Posted By John Orme
Hi,
I have been recently appointed the role of Fire Safety Officer at work and I have been doing area RAs and a site general one.
The problem that I have is the fire alarm. It is of 1950's vintage and therefore is a 240V system. This has no control panel so there is no fault indication or power light. It also has no battery backup. I have highlighted this to mgmt but the idea of replacing it didnt go down too well (£40,000) I cant find any clear legislation that states that it should be to BS5839.
Any pointers would be appriciated.
Thanks
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Posted By Bob Youel
Dont think that your insurers would be to happy
and I dont think that the 'law' actually states that you must have an electro/ mechanical alarm system fitted - its a suitable and sufficient alarm system for the risk etc present that is required - *additionally a 'human voice' alarm raising system can be legal irrespective of what some say
I would get some professional advice from the fire service / insurance companies etc without giving all info away as you could get a backlash. Additionally read as much as you can
Irrespective of * above - its usually better to have an electro/mechanical system in place as a good well maintained system never sleeps and is very reliable and its installiation cost can be recoverable via the tax man
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Posted By shaun mckeever
If there is no battery back up then it is not in compliance with the Health and Safety (Signs and Signals) Regulations.
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Shaun
Are you alluding to the guidance that states that alarm systems should comply with BS5839?
Paul
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Posted By Ken Taylor
So, if you have a power cut (possibly due to a fire) you have no operational fire alarm system. Unless you work in a building where all the occupants will hear if you shout 'Fire!', it sounds like your arrangements for notifying persons of a fire are inadequate. Whilst BSs are not law, your fire risk assessment is likely to show that the fire risk to occupants could be inadequately controlled at times. Has this old system been regularly serviced and no comment made at those times regarding this?
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Posted By John Orme
The alarm is tested every 6 months and we get a certificate that states non-compliance with BS5839 and signs and signals. If we have a power cut, the system stops working. When the power is restored the system goes into alarm and we evacuate.
You cant hear the fire alarm in places so I doubt you will be able to hear someone shouting!
I will be checking the system with the recomendations in BS5839 - should be interesting...
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Paul I am referring to the Health and Safety (Signs and Signals)Regulations. This requires that any fire alarm that is required for life safety purposes to be provided with battery back up or similar.
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Posted By Hasitha Ratnayake
Hi John,
Don't you have to pay high insurance premium due to this obsolete system? Mate, full credit to you with sleeping with your system. I remember I couldn't, with a couple of outstations lost on a Gents34K.
cheers.
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Posted By Crim
Hi Shaun,
I thought all fire alarms were designed for life safety purposes? Is there some wording that distinguishes between life and non life?
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Posted By shaun mckeever
Hi Crim
L1-L5 are life safety systems. P1&2 are property protection systems. Manually operated electric systems do not have automatic detection but are to enable occupants to manually raise the alarm so can be considered as a life safety system.
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Posted By Crim
Shaun,
Thanks for reminding me I used to know but it seems I have forgotton more than I remember.
Just shows that CPD is worthwhile after all.
We don't know what the system in this thread covers but sounds like it is well out of date anyway.
many thanks
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Posted By Ken Taylor
From your response, John, it sounds like your workplace needs a fire alarm system and, as such, the existing one is inadequate and does not meet current legislation. Presumably your risk assessessment and report will say something along these lines.
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Posted By PGraham
John,
As the system has no 'back up' facility in the event of power loss (say during a fire) then it would be regarded as unreliable and as such is not suitable for your premises, providing that an electronic system was required in the first place.
Your local Fire & Rescue Service would appreciate a system replacement, but with the introduction of new legislation so recently, may not be quite prepared to strongly enforce this at this time, dependant upon where you live?
I would suggest that this inadequacy is reported & actioned asap and an interim replacement be quickly put into place (e.g. air-horns; whistles) and your Fire Safety Risk Assessment be amended to reflect this.
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