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Posted By Crim
Another CDM 07 queery?
My client, a principle contractor has received a faxed instruction for a shop re-fit. The fax contained descriptions for the interior design, in the form of a sketch, and this was passed on to a design company who produced a drawing based on instruction given on the faxed copy.
Under CDM 2007 who would have the Designer's duties:
a) the Client who instructed the P C?
b) The P C?
c) the design company who acted on the original instruction?
The CDM Plan has been produced as the project was due to start 5th Feb but has been put on hold while further planning permissions and designs are requested, and may start after the new regs come in therefore CDM 2007 will apply.
This Client is not aware of their responsibilities under CDM therefore if they are the Designer they are unable to advise themselves about responsibilities under CDM 2007.
Have I made myself clear?
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Posted By I McDonald
Crim
Client and designer will be Designer Duty Holders. PC only if final fixing design, etc, is part of their package unless, the PC has appointed the Design company (then it will be as clear as mud dependant on the Contract terms).
That's my thoughts anyway.
Ian
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Posted By Crim
Ian - clear as mud all right!
The P C employed the design company to draw the design, as faxed by the Client to the PC.
I think the Client has the design duties here, but as I say they don't know the designers' duties so how can they advise themselves?
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
As you can have more than one designer, and as all three parties have a design input therefore all three are designers.
In the case of the contractor, they will develop method of installing the shop window (method statement), therefore they have a design input.
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Posted By Bob Youel
the designer should tell the client and the PC about their duties etc irrespective & the PC should also tell the client re their dties etc
where is the Planning Super / Coordinator in all this?
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Posted By I McDonald
Crim
bit clearer now. PC is only working to a give specification (vague as it is). PC responsible for ensuring designer competence and resources - END OF.
Design duty holders - Client (its their spec) Designer (they prepare the design).
PC only responsible if the do final fixing design, site run of services, etc (i.e. final design detail).
Method of construction does not come into design side unless those installing have design input (i.e. determining final securing and fixing of steelwork).
That would be my stance.
Ian
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Posted By Crim
I think we're getting somewhere but so many different views.
The works involve a small shop refit, approx 4 weeks and will take place while the store is trading.
The Client has not appointed a Planning Supervisor, (not fully aware of duties under CDM), therefore the P C has assumed the P S position to get on with the project.
I have advised the P C against the P S duty, (competence issue), and suggested they advise their Insurers as they may not be covered to function as P S.
The P C is concerned that if they do not do the P S role the contract will be awarded to another contractor?
I am unable to prevent any of this as I act as advisor to the P C only.
I believe this sort of thing will continue under the new CDM 07.
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
“Designer” means any person (including a client, contractor or other person referred to in these Regulations) who in the course or furtherance of a business—
(a) prepares or modifies a design; or
(b) arranges for or instructs any person under his control to do so,
relating to a structure or to a product or mechanical or electrical system intended for a particular structure; and a person is deemed to prepare a design where a design is prepared by a person under his control;
and the “design” includes drawings, design details, specification and bill of quantities (including specification of articles or substances) relating to a structure, and calculations prepared for the purpose of a design;
Thus there is likely to be a number of designers on a project from the architects and engineers who work on the major design specifications, to those who prepare or modify the design for the scaffolding, the electrical layout, the layout of traffic control around the site etc.
Regards, Philip
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Posted By I McDonald
Crim
I agree, new regs wont change much other than more Client prosecutions.
As for your Client, tell them to send a copy of Client duties leaflet to the Client. Don't think the PS role will be very difficult in the project you describe and they may find it cheap enough to appoint their own (YES I do know the profit margins in shop fitting).
The joys of shop fitting never change (and are not likely to change).
Ian
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Posted By Crim
Thanks all,
Philip, according to your description all three are designers? Whether they like it or not.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Knowing that the duration is around 28 days must then pose the question of the total number of operative days that will be worked if notification is needed under the new regulation. As long as the 500 operative days is not exceeded then the work is non-notifiable and the mention of PrincipAL contractor and co-ordinator are irrelevant.
The design duties still exist however and as long as the client sketch is only a sketch of what it needs to look like then the contractor employed designer is the lead designer. Regard the sketch as some sort of design inception.
Do not forget that the new regulations have substantial regulatory requirements for even non-notifiable work including provision of such as information, competence assessment, co-ordination and co-operation etc. These do not simply apply to notifiable works after 6th April 2007.
Bob
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Posted By I McDonald
Clear as mud again.
Philips response is clear and accurate and in the strictest sense, all 3 are designers. Isn't CDM 2007 about clarification of duties as well and trying to hold those responsible accountable. In this case I think the PC is just being used as a middle man and may successfully argue that point. Crim, a lot will be down to the terms of the contract (i.e. have they accepted on a design build basis?).
Ian
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Posted By Martyn Hendrie
I think a common error people make is to think that a designer must do calculations or prepare drawings, or for that matter be appointed by someone to carry out a design.
The reality is that if you are doing something that fits within the description of "design" you are likely to have the designers duties (in so far as you can control your aspect of the overall design) (If the cap fits you wear it)
In the example given I think it probable that all the parties would be considered as designers.
On a slightly different area, if the works are in a shop/store and the area has not been completely segregated, my understanding is that the local EHO would be the enforcing authority and CDM would not apply to the construction work carried out on site. (i.e. no PS;PC or formal H&S Plan)
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Posted By Crim
Martyn,
Thanks for the response, food for thought indeed?
The work area will be segregated, it has to be otherwise safety can not be ensured. However the store will still trade as normal. Could this still be non CDM?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Crim
The differentiation is clearer to understand under the new 2007 regs
30 days total duration
or
500 operative days of work, where this occurs in a period of 30 days.
The HSE do indicate that unexpected overruns to the 30 days do not necessarily mean that the work automatically should be notified.
As I said above - no notification = no co-ordinator or principal contractor or CP H&S Plan
Bob
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