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Posted By Paul Woodard
Has anyone come across a practice in schools (esp. High Schools) where it is accepteable to have a delayed activation of the fire alarm from activation of a manual call point to reduce the effects of malicious activations by pupils. In this particular case a delay of 3 minutes in which time the site management team respond to the flashing light on the control panel, investigate the area for themselves and then confirm or otherwise if there is really a fire. I totally oppose this 'management' system for numerous reasons but alas have no authority to influence the decision but would be interested to hear of other situations and resolutions.
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Posted By Glyn Phillips
Whilst these types of systems may provoke some adverse reaction from some people, they do have their place. I once worked in a large leisure centre complex where the fire alarm had such a delay (although not 3 mins - 90 secs as I recall). This allowed the security staff to react to an alarm without having to evacuate the buildings of hundreds of scantily clad guests. The system was fully endorsed by the fire and emergency service and issued a fire certificate to this effect.
If the alarm was not resolved within the given time the full sounder system would activate, as would the automatic call system, and a full evacuation would ensue.
In my experience the majority of the alarm activations in the building were as a result of someone either deliberately blowing smoke into a detector head (in a no smoking building) or young guests (not what I would like to call them!) deliberately activating call points. Incidentally the reason they tried to set off the alarms was to get their mates in through the fire exits and avoiding the entrance fee.
I do not see a problem with these types of systems so long as the alarm is reacted to in good time and the full activation is not delayed excessively.
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Posted By Stephen Clark
1) What does your fire risk assessment say about this?
2) Get your local fire authority involved, seek their opinion - they are the ones who will accept or reject the risk assessment.
I don't like delayed alarms myself but i can understand why organisations opt for them. Given that the evacuation time is typically 2-3 minutes dependant upon the buildings construction materials, waiting 3 minutes before alerting your guests would appear to be rather excessive.
Steve Clark CMIOSH
Chair R&D SG: Transport Committee
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Posted By steven bentham
Interesting problem, seen this several times before.
If you say alarm and all out every time then the kids (bless their little hearts) can empty the school ten times a day . . and at exam time!
I have seen a number of successul options to counter this:
(1) relocate vulnerable alarm activation points (the kids usually target ones that are easy for them to disappear from)
(2) protect vulnerable alarm activation points with a flip over cover (so it can't accidentally be set off!)
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Posted By Paul Woodard
The end user has carried out a risk assessment to justify the delay and cited - hazards of crushing/crowding in corridors and exposure to wind/rain every time there is an evacuation. I know it is ultimately the repsonsibility of the end user to ensure a suitable and sufficient Fire Risk Assessment is produced. But the delay seems to be an acceptable solution across the county where I live. I noted that the RRO document for educational establishments suggests plastic covers and relocating call points but I don't seem able to find anything on delayed activation unless the building operation lends itself to phased evacuation. Clearly an impractical solution within a school environment. I have already suggested the measures as mentioned above to ensure the safety of the collective. And more severe punishments for the minority of offenders.
Thanks for your responses so far.
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Posted By Mike Herbert
While i appreciate your reticence this is actually quite common.
While the system can have a two or three minute delay to allow you time to investigate the situation you should also be able to set up the system in order that the delay is bypassed if another device in the area is activated such as a heat or smoke detector.
Colloquially known as a two knock system it helps to minimise the number of false alarms especially if the system is linked direct to fire brigade. They had the support of fire officers in reducing the number of false call outs in my situation (entertainment venue); schools may be different check with your local service.
Some of these systems can also send paging signals to key staff either by dedicated device or sometimes to mobile pnones so that having someone in front of the fire panel constantly is not necessary and freeing up staff for other duties out on site.
It can also reduce the stress on staff being dispatched to investigate who may believe they are about to walk into a hazardous area (sent to their doom!)when it is more likely a false alarm.
Notifier was one company who provided these systems but i'm sure there are plenty of others. (Usual no commercial interest disclaimer)
As another poster has pointed out you can also get flip lids for call points that have a loud local alarm raising the attention of teachers or staff in the immediate area and hence catching the blighters in the act.
Hope this helps. Regards
Mike
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Posted By Andy Brazier
It is important to realise that a 3 minute delay for the alarm does not equal a 3 minute delay in evacuation. Given that a manual access point being activated means that someone must be present, they can already be evacuating the area before the alarm sounds. In fact I can see this delay being safer in two ways:
1. Reduced false alarms mean people are more likely to react to alarms
2. By delaying the alarm for all, it allows the people most at risk (in the immediate vicinity) to get out without being hindered by the masses.
I would suggest your procedures are tightened so that if someone activates a manual call point they then phone to explain what the problem is as soon as they can from a safe location. This can act as a confirmation allow the building managers to activate the alarm before they have had the chance to check themselves. It is important to note that people sometimes activate call points for emergencies other than fire, including medical emergency, and again evacuating everyone can be counterproductive.
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Posted By Maggie Atterbury
One of the best ways of dealing with repeated false alarms in schools particularly, is to take them very seriously! i.e. evacuate the school and make sure that all the pupils are standing on the tennis court etc for at least half an hour whilst you "investigate the fire". When you do this for the third time, it stops being funny and self regulation kicks in. You will find that pupils will ensure that their peers do not waste their time in this way any more.
Maggie Atterbury
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Posted By Ian Dale
I do not think that the local Fire & Rescue Service would recommend such a course of action.
A recent incident in Glasgow resulted in three firemen being sacked after students were kept out in the cold for almost three hours following an alarm.
Ian Dale
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Posted By Steve Clark
Are you able to substantiate the 'sacking' statement ref Glasgow? Do you have a link that we could use to read more on this? This would prove interesting reading for all of those who produce emergency plans that include alternate locations for staff in poor weather.
Steve Clark CMIOSH
R&D SG: Chair Transport & Distribution Committee
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Posted By Ian Dale Yes - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...gow_and_west/6235039.stmFiremen sacked after student call Three firemen have been sacked after students were kept out in the cold for almost three hours following an alarm. The incident occurred in Glasgow in November when firemen from Cowcaddens' station responded to a late night call at student flats in Calgary Street. The students said that although there was no fire, they were kept outside their accommodation from just after midnight until 0300 GMT. Two other firefighters also received final written warnings. A total of eight firefighters were suspended after the incident. No action is being taken against the remaining three firefighters, Strathclyde Fire and Rescue said. It said that the action followed an internal inquiry and disciplinary proceedings. "This follows a number of complaints from members of the public about the conduct of some of our personnel," said the service. "Given that this is a disciplinary issue that may be subject to appeal, Strathclyde Fire and Rescue has no further statements to make at this time." It was also reported in our local newspapers. Hope this helps Ian Dale
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