Posted By Jim Walker
Crim,

I agree with you 100%

We should always set ourselves a high standard and lead by example.

I however recognise I do not always meet my own high standards and not to recognise the fact would be hypocrisy.

The incident that started all this off, falls way below my own standard and I don't for one minute condone it. But we have all (when sat behind the wheel) done something approaching the recklessness of the person under discussion

Being human and dealing with humans we have to recognise we all at times fail. A lynch mob solves nothing.

Posted By Tabs
Yes, let's at least try.

Myself, I will always try, but being a mere human I am almost certain to disappoint sometimes - but it will not stop me trying.

Like you.

Posted By Safetynut
"Salus Populi Suprema Lex Esto"

The safety of the people is the supreme law

Posted By Dave Wilson
Is this from a small club?? Topical news

Posted By steve jones
Crim,

If my memory serves me correctly, is that the club motto for Everton F.C.?

Posted By Pete48
Crim, the point I was making is that I do not see striving to achieve excellence whilst recognising the human propensity to fail as being mutually exclusive. They are inextricably linked. To understand this, in my view, is to open doors not close them or limit achievement in any way. Thus increasing our chances of reaching the ideal that you propose and I support.
Of course, Victor Meldrew felt the same about service and standards and look what happened to him! A lesson for us all there somewhere.
By the way, your use of a nom-de-plume doesn't bother me. I could call myself Harry Featherstone and no-one except the webteam and mods would know it was a nom-de-plume. And, of course, Crim could be your real name??

Posted By Pete48
Peter,
I think that codes 8 and 18 of the IOSH code of conduct might apply to an IOSH member if the circumstances as reported by the media are factual and accurste. I hasten to add that I am not alleging any breach or making any complaint against anyone in responding here. Merely trying to highlight the fact on this open forum that IOSH does have standards and codes that cover such circumstances.
These include complaints/disciplinary procedures which can lead to formal review by Council or a committee appointed by Council; or for more serious cases, a disciplinary committee formed of both IOSH members and independent persons and which is chaired by an independent barrister of at least ten years standing.
Where a case such as that reported might end up is beyond my ken and I make no comment on that whatsoever.

Posted By Crim
How did you guess that my real name is Victor Meldrew?

Joking of course but I have beed told in the past that there is some of him in me. There was in my dad and it must have been handed down to me.

I have to say that I don't see failure as not achieving the right result in spite of putting in every effort possible. In that case people deserve a pat on the back for effort and I do praise people for effort. (well done - hard luck - better luck next time etc.) I am a qualified sports coach and recognise that people need rewarding and that a kind encouraging word spurs them on to do more.

What I don't like is the acceptance that failure is inevitable - because it just isn't!

I suppose the old saying that "to fail to plan is to plan to fail" could come in here, and "the more you put in the more you get out". Perhaps we just need to try harder, (me included).

Thanks for all the comments, it's all good stuff!

Back to the footy now, second half just starting.

Posted By Christopher
Judges are very much influenced by the information put before them, and in particular by those who are submitting the evidence. As a former UNISON rep. I am only too aware from the cases I have been involved with, how much negotiating takes places before any hearings. Think CPS! Outcomes can vary from, we need this person/popular with the senior management (it was a simple error of judgement), this person will create a lot of problems if we come down too harshly/has no backing in the organisation we can easily get rid of them. The individual is creating too many waves, even if they are correct, this is an opportunity to get rid of them. Influenced by the media etc.

When I was doing my teaching practice, we were observed for personal mannnerisms. This is what we do without thinking, and can be misconstrued by your audience. Possibly the case in this incident.

In the Health Service, patients die through negligence. In the police, persons get shot. In the services, soldiers are killed. There is very little accountability.

Can we all remember that this is someone's livelihood/live/family that is involved here. It would be shameful if IOSH and its members were to use him as a scapegoat.

I asked in a previous thread whether people would leave if they knew that their organisation was acting unsafely. Many people wouldn't. In reality they were effectively turning a blind eye to breaches of statutory legislation. Does this make them any less of a criminal by letting those unsafe practices continue.

Posted By J Knight
Hi Folks,

Agree, its not up to us to judge (for which I breathe a heartfelt sigh of relief), but the point about an event being notorious just because it hit the headlines, and that that shouldn't matter, is actually questionable. If something is deemed to have brought the profession (or the business or whatever) into disrepute it almost by definition has to be public, the more public the airing the bigger the impact on reputation. That sounds arbitrary, I know, but its true,

John

Posted By Pete48
Guys, isn't the point that there are two codes involved here. One deals with disrepute and the other with criminal offences??
As Peter says an offence exists regardless of publicity and could, therefore, lead to disciplinary action of itself.
The wider publicity, which only occurred as a result of the type of offence and the link between individual and profession, could lead to an allegation of disrepute??
A difficult area in which I consider myself fortunate in lacking any wisdom to judge.

Posted By Christopher
Hello, hello, hello

My posting has now been removed. I haven't received an email to explain why. Moderator can I have an email or a comment please.

Posted By Pete48
ITK,
Why that particular example? Is it grounded in the belief that inadvertent offence is lesser than deliberate violation? Perhaps that coupled with the remaining social acceptance that speeding is somehow not really criminal?
I might speculate with you about such a point.
But please can we remember that the code says "may lead to discipline" and that consideration must, therefore, have many stages before taking that approach. I am not aware that anyone has suggested "chucking out" members on the simple standpoint of having committed an offence.

Posted By ITK
Pete48, have you ever exceeded the speed limit, or just not been caught.

If the answer to both questions is no, then I congratulate you.

I reiterate my former posting to you, should I be thrown out of the institution?

Posted By Pete48
ITK,
You know the answer to that question.
I don't know the answer to your other question. However, if I were ever to be seated in judgement, I would sincerely hope that my judgement would be "of course not" based on a single offence with a speed csamera, no injuries, no other offences etc.

Peter,
I think John has already illustrated my view in his last posting with regard to the impact of publicity.

I am then left idly wondering what the headline would look like when it said "-----condones repeated speeding offences by hundreds of its members without taking any action"

No please don't!!

As I have said difficult, very difficult