Posted By Lulu
Put your objections and recommendations to this in writing and send to person ultimately responsible for health and safety in your organisation (you've probably already done this though) then have a cuppa and start scanning the situations vacant.

Posted By Clarke Kent the 2nd
If you have completed the paper chase, informed the correct chain of people, you have nothing to worry about.

Posted By Richard Mathews
Agree with the above, make sure all your advice and objections are well documented. Then explain to your boss that it will be him/her in the dock and you in the witness box should anything actually go wrong. There is a hell of a difference in these two positions, I know which one I would rather be in.

Richard

Posted By Andrew Meiklejohn
Been in a similar situation.

I would make a formal issue of this and keep copies of everything.

I would start the company grievance procedure.

and I would speak to the HSE for advice

Posted By Christopher
I have to agree with Sally.

Section 7 (a) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 states:

'Employees have a duty to take reasonable care for their own health, safety and welfare at work, and that of others who may be affected by their acts or omissions.'

It's all very well stating that Garry will be covered if he puts his concerns in writing to the management, but what about his responsibilties to those who might be affected by this 'dangerous' course of action. If the management are not taking on board his advice (he hasn't stated what the issue is), then surely he has a responsibility in the interests of safety to those employees who are depending on him to provide good advice to management on their behalf to ensure that their safety is not compromised.

I would suggest that he tries a meeting with senior management. Visits the companies whistleblower and health and safety policy. Revisits his job description,
and revisits the Code of Ethics of IOSH.

Sorry Garry, if this sounds like a lecture. I

I'm sure it can't be easy for you.

Posted By Richie
Garry,

As an Adviser, once you had covered your 'underside', documented etc., unless clear and imminent danger was taking place you could take a back seat. However (and it is an important 'however'), you would still be in an un-enviable position come the inevitable external agency investigation. Your judgement would be looked at very closely, including all 'reasonable actions and advice' which might be considered suitable by the investigating officer. In my experience they tend not to think like your normal person on the street.

As a Safety Manager you have a duty to do exactly that. Manage the situation. Hence the uplift in average salaries for managers over advisers (The phrase 'Safety Manager' infers responsibility). Sometimes, not often thank goodness, it becomes an inner-strength issue. It may serve you well to review your terms of reference concerning your duties to management in the case of such developments, and use your TORs as a stick to beat the management. After all, if they are determined to undertake an unreasonably risky activity, why employ you?

You might wish to mention the insurance arrangements concerning the activity, once again as a tool to get the management to stop and think. Money talks, and an increase in insurance premium and other associated costs due to unsafe acts is likely to be taken notice of. The same avenue with a different tack might also be used, by suggesting to the management that you shall run the system of work by the insurers to make sure they are OK with it, might be a better halfway house than contacting the enforcement authorities....

Some companies work hand in hand with enforcement authorities, some do not. You will know which camp your company falls within, so I am sure you will have already made up your mind regarding involving them or not. I have to say involving them can be a course of action which is best steered away from.

Good luck whatever your course of action.

Richie

Posted By Pete48
Garry, you said "does not conform with HSE regs and would be regarded as a dangerous course of action". If this means "is likely to be carried on in a way which will involve a risk of serious personal injury" then you have, in principle at least, a situation similar to that faced by an inspector considering a prohibition notice. In my opinion, your clear duty would be to prevent that injury by whatever means. Others have outlined what those measures may include, I would add asking for a confidential meeting with the senior manager/board member shown as director for H&S and blow the whistle with her/him. If that doesn't resolve things, then I would resign immediately and then report my reasons to the relevant enforcement agency.
Of course all of this would be based on an unshakable truth that I am correct in all aspects. ( I have checked and double checked including with my peers amongst others)
If the situation is more similar to where an improvement notice might be used, then I would need to sharpen my negotiating skills and get in there pdq.
You ask how to avoid getting here in the first place. In my experience, you must have the ability to call on the authority of the person shown in your arrangements as the exec responsible for leading on H&S. This in order to prohibit anything that you determine as involving risk of serious personal injury and for which you cannot gain timely line management acceptance (using all those wonderful safety manager skills mentioned above!). That is unless you are part of a large H&S team with a competent H&S line manager in which case you should discuss any concerns there.
If people know you have this ultimate access and get support when you need it, they will listen more effectively. Of course it puts pressure on you doesn't it; high profile access demands highly professional and responsible use of that access but it does get you the ability to stop things quickly and thus prevent harm.

Posted By Darren J Fraser
This may seem a daft question,

But have you actually taken the decision maker/s to the area of concern and explained to them in the area why you consider the course or method of work proposed to be a dangerous practice?

The reason I ask is that I have found in most cases, the decision maker/s do not know or fully understand the process, and what they believe to be a good intention is soon changed once they realise the gravity of their decision.

Otherwise I would endorse all that has been stated previously.

Posted By JohnZamo
I would first check that my line of thinking was correct i.e. that the Company is really bent on embarking on dangerous course of action, by anonymously emailing HSE without showing which Company or what it does, then try again to convince the Company. If that doesn't work then I would anonymously report the Company to HSE, for it would be very hard to live with, if anybody got hurt because of my inaction or omissions. And obviously I would start looking for another job :-).

Posted By Rob Randall
Hi,

the responses suggesting anonymous reporting to the HSE have a very strong whiff of moral cowardice. That approach is definitely not in keeping with the IOSH code of conduct.

If you are a safety manager you have to manage this situation not wash your hands of it. Go with the constructive approach, but be sure you are right and don't back down.

Posted By mike morland
Garry

Forgive me if having read the responses to your post (thread) and missed some details but I'm not sure if you are fairly new to your H&S role or have held it for some time.

Regardless of experience both your employer and yourself have to remember the reason you have been chosen to be the 'nominated person, for H&S in your company.

Your role has to be taken seriously by all. It's not a game nor is H&S about picking out the bits that are the least trouble or the most convienient.

It may be that whilst you have told your employer that the issue is 'stupid' perhaps you should use the words 'dangerous', 'irrisponsible' and 'illegal'.

It is important that you set your own standards and sometimes you may need to go 'toe to toe' with those that believe 'it won't happen to us' but will only have to do it once.

Resigning is not the answer here unless you never intend to take on such a role again. I you move to a new company in the same role what will you do if you incur the same problem - resign again and again?

Present the evidence in a constructive way. Support it with the appropriate regulations. Speak privately to the Director responsible. Remind them of their legal obligations and the consequences of their actions.

In short - stand up and be counted and you will find you and your role will become an integral part of any decision making.

I know - I was that man.

Posted By LauraR
Hi Garry,

I will try and give you my best advice having been in this position myself. With a very well known organisation with a high street presence who is one of the top 10 UK trusted brands?

If you are an IOSH member then you are bound by the code of conduct. Section 7 states:
Members having good reason to believe that their
professional advice is not followed shall take
reasonable steps to ensure that persons overruling or
neglecting their advice are formally made aware of
potential adverse consequences which may result.

7. ‘Reasonable steps’ relating to professional advice will
vary according to your situation. For example, as an
employed member, you may operate through
established procedures such as your organisation’s
management chain or its health and safety
committee. In extreme cases, you can ask for advice
from IOSH or other organisations which may be able
to help, such an enforcing authority. You’ll need to
take into account any legislation relating to
protection and public disclosure.

I used this fact and wrote a memo to the board where I used to work outlining concerns that I had raised that had been ignored. I went through the complete management chain before eventually approaching the board.

Be warned they tried to make me go through a discipline / grievance procedure which I refused and I advised the HR representative who sent me the letter to attend the hearing that raising H&S concerns are subject to the Employment Act and Public Information Disclosure Act.

They did agree and stopped the grievance route but this did not leave me in a comfortable situation in work.

As a result I did find alternative employment and left the company and certainly do not feel any regrets for the action that I took.

I would have felt much worse if something that I had predicted had gone wrong as I would have questioned whether I could have done more.

I have a theory on things that worry me:
1. If I can control them then I need to change them
2. If I can't then it is pointless worrying about it.

In this case the only way to change was to leave. Also since I have left they have started to address the issues I raised. C'est la vie.


I still LOVE my job and want to make a difference where I can.

Hope this helps you make a decision either way.

Posted By Granville Jenkins
It is regretful that you work for an organisation that flouts health and safety legislation, in this day and age such behaviour is totally inexcusable.

However, doing nothing is not an option that you have, you must bring your concerns to the attention of the HSE otherwise if an event does occur you will be held to be 'culpably liable' (held to blame) in a court of law for your failure to bring those matters of which you were fully aware to the attention of the HSE who may otherwise have taken enforcing action against the company and avoided the situation escalating.

You should contact the HSE anonymously, but it is likely that the company will have a good idea of who did contact the HSE and any reprisal (if any) will depend on the management culture of company.

In all honesty you are not in an enviable position and you should make plans to migrate.


Regards
Granville

Posted By Christopher Kelly
Garry
Difficult to judge, I have worked for a number of dodgy firms but even the best run make bad decisions and go against their H&S obligations. If they are an immoral / unethical firm - best to get out.

I was in this situation working for someone who took the resources aspect of HR literally. I took all the action advised above, advising senior and middle management of their obligations and covered myself in writing and verbally with witnesses present on numerous occasions and covered my back.

When the proverbial hit the fan I ended up giving evidence against my MD who nearly ended up on a criminal charge. The company was charged under MoH&S@WRegs and LOLER and ended up with a 18k fine. The guy was seriously injured and, having come out of hospital 6 days later, found out that the company had immediately stopped paying him (minimal SSP only).

The company pleaded guilty but the barrister made a mitigating circumstances statement which implied that I was at fault (stated I was H&SO when I was actually a general / transport manager). By this time I had left of my own accord and was working elsewhere, they implied that I was sacked. As he wasn't formally tried (pleaded guilty) all of the detail did not come out and the local press printed what his barrister said. Living close to my place of work and everyone in the locality knowing who I was made it difficult for me, although I put my case forward in the local press they do not exactly go out of their way to help you. I am now a full-time H&S professional and much more aware of what to do and, being a member of IOSH aware of help available from IOSH and my peers. Personally I don't think that anyone pleading guilty should be allowed to make any statement as this always protects them. The criminal fine is often the small element for them - the potential for increased insurance premiums or withdrawal of insurance cover is the serious issue. Closing statement helps them to put a 'spin' on the issue, covering up the real fault.

At the time I had a lot of health and safety competence but the prosecution stage is totally different. The HSE are not interested in helping you even though you are helping them. Note that the HSE Inspector who prosecuted us actually saw the item which was involved in the accident 6 months earlier and gave us totally irrelevant advice about how to make it safe, then denied he had ever seen it when it came time to investigate the accident.

This probably isn't much help to you but, generally I think if your company's management are at heart decent people and you cover yourself in writing (keeping copies of everything relevant outside of work)and act in a professional, polite manner at all times (never lose your temper)then you should be OK.

Just bear in mind that barristers / solicitors turn everything to whatever argument is relevant. If you are ever involved in an HSE prosecution, don't really on the HSE to protect you, get your own legal representation and consult any professional organisation for help (ie IOSH / MIIRSM).

Take heart - I have left a number of firms because I felt they were treating people like cattle but have finally found a good one.

Regards, hope of help.
Chris

Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Thank you everyone. It would have taken 2 sheets of A4 to explain the problem with clarity and three sheets to reply to you all.
However the lack of info has illicted a wide response of opinions.

having spent 10 years in the job of H&S with other companies this one has been a bit of a surprise. Have done 3 months with current employer, no replies to e-mails, letters, and unable(unwilling)to allocate time so that we might talk.

All work is conducted off site and I gallop about trying to stop the plain daft taking place.Most days its OK but every now and again to get the job done, it gets a bit OTT and I am not one to expect Utopia in the work place.I take a much more practicle appraoch to the regs then many persons who operate in the field of H&S. So if I get worried then its time to worry.

I could ring HSE, but he would just close the company down.I would be ok, but for a lot of people being suddenly cast adrift can have devastating results.

I could quit but that means there would be no one to put a brake on the system. And the lads would be fully exposed to risk.

So I will stick with it for another 3 months. Its not the best idea or the best solutuion but with all the facts at my disposal and with your opinions as a yard stick.

If I have got a nil result in three months, time out, done my best, did'nt give up straight away.

Thanks everyone, much valued thoughts....

Posted By Kieran J Duignan
Is it really the case that 'all' a H & S professional can do is 'lead a horse to water'?

If animals declined to drink, what professional would simply go on putting water in front of it for 23 months?

A scientific professional would, in my experience, consider at least two other options:
a. gather and evaluate evidence on how well 'water' suited the needs of the animals and adapt the nourishment appropriately on the basis of relevant scientific research (as well as law)
b.gather and evaluate the evidence that the animals were not actually 'horses' at all but possible snakes of the kind decribed in 'Snakes in Suits. When Psychopaths go to Work' by organisational psychologist Paul Babiak and forensic psychologist Robert Hare (ReganBooks, 2006)so that he/she could publish the evidence for others to learn about the habitat in which 'water' is not palatable.

Posted By Kieran J Duignan
Hello Laura

I regret any way in which you feel I may have suggested you may lack professionalism - that was not my intention in any way.

What I simply emphasise is the value of gathering factual evidence ESPECIALLY in organisations which consistently fail to comply with their legal obligations.

Actually, I do very much question the validity of your generalisation based on 'culture'as I know OSH professionals (and others) who daily defy the 'culture' from their seniors to ameliorate the conditions of employees. Through not only persuasion but also through embarassing and developing coalitions for improvements, they make a gradual but significant difference, day in, day out and in the medium term.

One element implicit in your earlier contributions goes a long, long way to account for the difficulties you (and perhaps Garry) faced: the apparent unwillingness and/or inability of the HR executive in the organisation you sketched to address the issues professionally. While this may be partly due to the abysmal level of education in health and safety within the CIPD qualification process, there are some HR folk who are second to none in their ethical stand about employees' rights. It would be a shame if your experience of falling foul of some(one) who didn't blinded you to the scope for diplomatic alliances with others who are very skilful influencers.

In passing, I should add that it's rather odd that you appear to suggest that I am unfamiliar with non-compliant organisations: I don't know what factual evidence you have for your assertion when some decades'experience as a (qualified) counsellor as well as a safety ergonomist, mediator and expert witness have given me a fair deal of exposure. Unlike heaven, Hell is reputed to be fairly similar in its style: once you get to a low level of psychopathy, the variations in practice are less limited than the masks and disguises.

Best personal wishes to all who are obliged to rub against 'snakes in suits' in 2007

Posted By Ian.M
Dear Garry,

I was interested in your thread as it brought back a few memories. Prior to working as a Safety and Health Practitioner I was employed in the Hospitallity Sector for approx. 11 years. When I was 21 I got a job as a Junior Duty Manager in a 250 bedroom approx. Hotel. In my initial "induction training" I was shown by the Managing Director how to disconnect the Fire Alarm System as it sometimes made a beeping noise as it was faulty???

In my limited wisdom,I felt it would be prudent to offer to call the local service engineer to fix the alarm. The Managing Director quickly declined my offer as it would cost £120 to fix the problem (around the cost of 1 room per night).

As this was a significant moral dillema I approached my father for advice who was a retired Firefighter. Needless to say he was equally unimpressed by the situation and offered his opinion in the matter. The following night I was working and knew the Managing Director would be away for the weekend so I arranged to have the alarm fixed as I wasnt prepared to be responsible for a loss of life in the Hotel.

The Managing Director retured on the Monday morning to find an invoice on his desk from the Alarm Company and I ended up recieving a slap on the hand for disobeying my "superior".

The following week one of our senior managers was leaving the Company and as he left his office, he tipped his ashtray into the Bin. Guess what happened next!!!!!!!!

Yes the office caught fire and ended up gutted from floor to ceiling. The staff were not sure where the fire was as the alarm was showing the wrong location, however they knew there was a fire and the fire services located it and quenched it.

As all the staff were aware of what had happened over me fixing the alarm prior to the Fire the Managing Directors pride was bruised which resulted in him treating me quite badly for six weeks untill I decided to leave.

I had been owed a significant ammount of overtime and knew I would never get paid for it. So as I was authorised to pay wages from the Hotels safe to staff members I decided to pay myself, witnessed by a number of staff members who signed a reciept to put back in the Safe.

The Managing Director tried to have me arrested but I had a copy of the Company handbook which proved that I was authorised to do so. Having left as I did abruptly I was without work for a few weeks untill I found another position.

To cut a long story short.

Everyone has a Legal, Moral and Humanitarian duty to ensure the Safety, Health and Welfare of others. Being out of work for a few weeks isnt nice when you have bills to pay but you can recover from it. Being responsible for a loss of life is not so easy to recover from. Sometimes tough choices have to be made and in this proffession standing by your gut feeling can be very rewarding when acting in good faith. We all encounter ethical issues and in many cases you feel like your fighting a loosing battle. But its a battle worth fighting. Jobs can be replaced, Lives cannot.

I hope this is of assistance in weighing up your options.

Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Thankyou for your comments.They are of help.

Regards
Garry

Posted By Booney
Garry,

I really do not envy the position you are in and I was trying to empathise by placing myself in your shoes and thinking about how I might handle the situation.

Have you thought about getting a second opinion from an outside source?

We have been in the situation where our Environmental officer was trying to get funding for some oil bunds to help with accreditation to ISO 14001 but was told he couldn't have them as they were too expensive and to seek alternatives. We had a gap analysis for 14001 carried out and the auditor suggested we needed the oil bunds - lo and behold, they were ordered the next day.
Not on the same scale as yours but, it does demonstrate the influence that an outside body can have on management decisions!

I am not wishing to undermine you in any way by suggesting this but, knowing the way that Management can think and behave, perhaps another opinion (one that they might feel is more objective?) would add weight to your argument and get the board to take action?

just a thought...

Regards

Booney