Posted By andy bee Hi what do you think about the wearing of shorts in a sheet metal enviroment, accident records show a very low rate of cuts, 12 in 20 years reported. The work place can get very warm and some employees want to wear shorts. Many thanks Andy

Posted By John Holland1 Does that mean that short sleeve shirts are not premitted? John

Posted By The toecap Yes, no short sleeves. Do a risk assessment and see what you come out with

Posted By Melanie Fellows Long sleeves & long trousers provide a barrier - be it from minor cuts and abrasions, oils and lubricants, welding rays etc. It's better to have to change your overalls because they get dirty than have to scrub your skin clean!!!

Posted By Rob Randall The toecap seems to have prejudged the issue when he says "Sorry, no shorts allowed. If it gets hot take breaks and take fluids. Do a risk assesment. Increase ventillation." What is the purpose of his risk assessment, presumably to confirm his stated opinion? Regards, Rob

Posted By Dave West Toecap i think that there is insufficient details to be able to say no straight off though a risk assessment would determine what course of action you should take. This could be a stores where there is no hot work and the provision of canvass apron may offer sufficient protection to allow the employee to wear shorts.

Posted By Mike Draper To get back to Andy's original question ... 12 cuts in 20 years suggests that you may be able to justify a more relaxed approach to your dress code. However before you go and make such a change, you need to consult with the workforce and ask them a lot of questions. e.g. How often do you rip your trousers or shirts? How many times a day does a fragment from a guillotine bounce off your leg? etc. Jeans, long sleeve shirts, overalls, etc. do provide some protection against cuts. So every ripped pair of trousers was another potential cut. You also need to find out why they want to make the change. Is it because they are hot? If so, allowing them to wear shorts won't necessarily make them any more comfortable, but improving ventilation might. Separately, long trousers or sleeves don't necessarily make things better with respect to chemical exposures. While you may think that the fabric creates a barrier, it is a porous one that is very good at ensuring the substance is held against the surface of the skin for a considerable period of time. All "rules" usually have a basis - what you have to do is figure out the basis and talk about it with the workers.

Posted By SeanThompson Its still 12 too many

Posted By John J Andy, rather than wear shorts and risk increasing your accident rate have you considered alternative underwear. I'm in the process of trying HH leggings and shirt which wicks sweat away from the body and keeps the user cooler. I'm trialing it with protective PVC suit work to see if this helps aid thermal comfort. I know it works under normal clothing and there are different grades depending on temperature. Regards, John

Posted By Peter Leese Quote: No Shorts No short sleeve shirts, overalls a must and fire retardant. Thomas, are you advocating long trousers, long sleeves and overalls?

Posted By Merv Newman I've worked in a plant where they make road signs, including the big electronic type panels you see on motorways, including the M25. Almost everyone in the workshop could show me scars on their hands and arms and tell me about scars on other parts where a consultant does not reach. The risk in such an environment is ever present. The cuts which have been reported to me have never been life-threatening, usually on the outside of the arm or leg where there are no serious arteries, but have often required stitches. Stoutish trousers and arm protections will not provide 100% protection but will reduce the severity of the injury, the depth of penetration. In other circumstances, a similar thread last year about kitchen installers, I have argued in favour of shorts. This time, my mental "risk assessment" comes out on the other side. So the argument for me comes down to risk management. What can you do to reduce the exposure of your employees to the sharp edges, and/or what can you do to reduce their exposure/suffering from heat ? If you can't do the first, nor the second, then protective clothing, cooling, drinks, pauses are a must. Side thought. where on earth did that phrase "ballistic trousers" come from ? "Ballistics" for me means the curving trajectory taken into account and calculated when you fire a cannon ball or an artillery shell into the air. Trousers ? Merv

Posted By Thomas Ripley Quote: No Shorts No short sleeve shirts, overalls a must and fire retardant. "Thomas, are you advocating long trousers, long sleeves and overalls?" Peter yes i am. Its common sense that the material of the overalls will give some protection against cuts and chemical spills. We should all be working towards zero accidents 12 injurys is still 12 to many.

Posted By GT Andy, During this period of 20 years what has changed that has increased the temperature and humidity ( other than the climate up 0.5 degree in the past 150 years for the month of April). What figures do you have for personnel suffering from heat stroke etc? Is this purely a comfort thing? To date you have experienced reasonable success with a low 12 accidents in 20 years, but you are saying how many people have been employed, would you not be better employed trying to reduce that average one injury every 18 months to zero? Hope this is conceived as constructive GT

Posted By Andrew Joule Land Are the 12 accidents reported as whilst wearing full cover clothing - How many near misses have been reported ? how many first aid cases? Were they Riddor reportable Where has full cover clothing / gloves etc; had to be replaced although the person did not receive any injury. What is the "type" of sheet metal are we dealing with - thin less than 1mm for ducting, making containers etc. or is it the heavy duty type, How much handling is required, What guarding etc is in place? Or do you want the answer wear shorts - no problem - do the analysis make your call -

Posted By Shaun Brennan gents/ladies we are talking about ballistic proof overalls, which are far to heavy and stiff to work in. So we go for the lighter option which is probanised overalls, these are fire proof and can stop chemicals penetrating and sharp objects they are also lightweight. An example is the SAS wear them when they are storming buildings Bugsy

Posted By Merv Newman Can we go back a bit and think about the causes of those cuts ? Were they caused by direct handling of sheet metal or by "careless" contact with stacked/stored sheets ? if the latter then there may be reason to review perimeter protection of stacking/storing areas. If the former then I know companies (sheet metal stamping for car bodies) who, in addition to supplying cut resistant gloves and work clothing, actually take the trouble to teach employees the correct way to handle sheet metal (straight in approach, avoiding "slicing" movements, stop before you get to the "web" between fingers and thumb)(dexterity school) They also count and record how many pieces could be handled before the gloves should be changed because of wear and tear (half- or full- or two-shifts and so on) The only company I have known that did tolerate shorts had the worst accident rate I have ever known. They made cardboard boxes. Merv

Posted By Christopher Kelly Merv, accept what you are saying, to some extent. However in the industry I was working in there was a lot of manual handling / assembly using the overhead crane. Sheets moved through 3 dimensions as they were building silos, metal was being bent into position for riveting. You can give as much training as you like but this won't get rid of cuts completely. Accepted it is better to design out the problem than rely on training or PPE but the fact is that sheet metal work = cuts. A cut on the hand can be serious enough, although it is often accepted as part of the job, but it becomes much more serious if it is on the leg / torso / wrist. Overalls help to spread the impact and reduce the penetration, additional measures can be taken if necessary. We have a problem within our workplace with heat also which is also serious when hand-digging operations are being carried out, even so we cannot allow personnel to completely remove overalls, we just have to introduce more breaks, chilled water etc. It is a difficult subject as no-one likes wearing PPE in hot, lovely weather but unfortunately certain tasks make it absolutely necessary. Regards, Chris

Posted By Philip Beale Used to work in a similar situation we used to wear shorts under overalls. as overalls are not tight fitting air can still circulate. wear shorts only around sheet metal sounds to risks although only 12 incidents have been raised how many minor ones don't get reported. Or do the workers not report the cuts so as no to give more ammunition. to me any work around sheetmetal/engineering should be overalls. Phil