Posted By Philip McAleenan
Naomi,

It is not a legal requirement. Because of the hazardous nature of confined spaces many companies do not do work in confined spaces except under a permit to work system. If this is the case with your company, then the work must be done under PtoW.

If it is not the case, it must none the less be carried out under strict controls, using only competent and authorised personnel who are fully conversant with the hazards, control mechanisms and importantly the emergency procedures should an incident occur.


Regards, Philip

Posted By Philip McAleenan
I appreciate where you are coming from Naomi. If it helps, you can download and use the following Permit as part of your control mechanism for CS entry without having to try and develop a full permit system at this point.

http://www.web-safety.co...documentation/permit.doc

The important thing is the control mechanisms that you put in place now, they will be tight whether under a permit or not. And it is best to get these done for the CS entry and debate the permit issue with the manager at a later stage.


regards, Philip

Posted By anon1234
No a PTW is not a legal requirement, however a safe system of work should exist.

Note: I beleive that most water utilities who have wastewater systems as part of their remit would not use a PTW for this type of activity but they do have well devloped safe systems of workand comprehensive training for those employees that do this type of work

Posted By Granville Jenkins
Hi Naomi

You need to take on board that you are dealing with one of the most hazardous working environments going, there have been so may deaths in recent years caused through people going into such area's ill prepared.

If you have an accident (in such situations as yours this will normally be a fatality) you will have to show in a court of law that you either met or exceeded the requirements of the ACOP.
If you can not show that you followed the ACOP you and your employer would be in serious trouble. Most fatalities go to Crown Court where on a personal level you could face an unlimited fine and/or 2 years in prison, your employer would also quite probably face corporate manslaughter charges.

Do your homework get the safe systems of work (risk assessment/s and method statements) in place and initiate a 'confined space permit to work'. The alternative is to go with the risk and accept the consequences of your inaction and don't moan when the S**t hits the fan.

Regards
Granville

Posted By GT
Naomi, You have been given very good advise on the forum, however, you most difficult task is still to be done.

Please follow some of the advise in the last reply and also list the tasks involved:
Confined space
Working over water
Working at Height
Poor air quality
Ridiuclous access
Unreasonable management support to a highly dangerous task ........what are the grounds for not working to a permit system.....how do they intend to control the measures necessary?

You could drop a line to the HSE or for that matter I am happy to do it for you come to that. LET ME KNOW YOU HAVE MY EMAIL ADDRESS

Be safe ..................better than being sorry..for all

GT

Posted By Helen C
Naomi,
I advise on confined space working for a number of companies and would be happy to offer you any advice you need - please call me on 01925 244144 if you still haven't managed to resolve this one.
Also, in my travels I have been to many organisations that have fantastic permit to work systems in place but......you can have the best permit system in the world and still not be carrying out the job safely.
Helen

Posted By Merv Newman
Naomi,

basically I would recommend that you follow the advice of Granville, except that i would strike the words "except in an emergency"

You really are dealing with a potentially lethal situation. An emergency can be defined as "seeing someone collapsed at the bottom of a pit" This often leads to the second and the third death.

I WILL NOT, as a basic philosophy, send people into a confined space. But when that has been absolutely necessary I have been first in.

Scares me to death.

I'm not claustrophobic (you should hear my deep mine stories) But I hate confined spaces. Too much can go wrong

Merv

Posted By Adrian Watson
Naomi,

Is it a wet or dry pit?

A dry (valve) pit is not of itself a confined space - it is certainly a restricted place, but not a confined space unless it potentially has a toxic, flammable or oxygen deficient atmosphere, or dry or wet materials are likely to flow into it. If it does not have these then only a safe system of work is required to enter the pit and work in it.

However, if it is a wet pit then it is a confined space and a permit to work is required both for entry and working. The permit to work is required to ensure that there is a safe atmosphere, to ensure all discharges into the pit are shut off and so that any work can be carried out safely.

Regards Adrian

Posted By Malcolm Hogarth
Question:

"Could some one please inform me if it is a legal requirement to have a permit to work, to work in a confined space?"

Without wishing to appear too pedantic, I am not sure whether any of us have been able to provide Naomi with a definitive answer to her original question. The difficulty is that she has stated to her boss that it is a legal requirement, but this has not been backed up.

Section 2(2)(a) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 requires the provision and maintenance of safe systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health.

The confined spaces Regulations 1997 state:

4.(1) No person at work shall enter a confined space to carry out work for any purpose unless it is not reasonably practicable to achieve that purpose without such entry.

4(2) Without prejudice to paragraph (1) above, so far as is reasonably practicable, no person at work shall enter or carry out any work in or (other than as a result of an emergency) leave a confined space otherwise than in accordance with a system of work which, in relation to any relevant specified risks, renders that work safe and without risks to health.

So it is clear that legislation requires a safe System of Work, however, I could not find reference to the specific requirement for a Permit to Work System.

I think if it were me I might just bite the bullet and tell the boss that I believed it was a legal requirement to have a permit to work as a general requirement to have a safe system of work, but having researched the matter can now advise that although it may not be an 'absolute' requirement, it is supported by ACOP's and Guidance and that implementing a Permit system would go a long way to demonstrating due diligence etc.

This can be followed up by implementing appropriate safe systems of work that may indeed include a Permit to Work system.

NB: is it a legal requirement to have a method statement?

Malcolm

Posted By garyh
I would endorse the above suggestions and add this - suggest to the boss that the local HSE Inspector be consulted on this.

If the Manager is right, this should not be a problem? There may not be an absolute requirement to have a PTW, but there is an absolute rqeuirement to comply with the regs.

Allowing an entry without proper control, eg PTW or similar, is reckless, in my view.

Sometimes as a safety manager you have to put it in writing and move on. This is not one of those times!

If there is one area where the line should be drawn, it is confined space entry, in my view. I would put my thoughts in writing, and come up with a plan to do the job safely. Base this on the excellent HSE ACOP Safe work in confined spaces - read this publication back to front first.

Stand your ground; confined spaces are killers.

Posted By anon1234
Malcolm,

glad to see you took my response in the way it was intended (i.e. tongue in cheek).

Well spotted:
I must use the spell checker
I must use the spell checker
I must use the spell checker
....
well that's how they tried to reinforce things when I was at primary school

Posted By Granville Jenkins
Hi Naomi

I hope things are becoming clearer amidst the comments that have been coming forward, I would make the following comments:

Regardless of whether or not the tank is wet or dry is of little relevance the issue of a permit to work for entry into confined spaces is well documented and you will leave yourself open to prosecution if you do not introduce such a system.

The governing regulation in this and many other similar situations are the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, Section 3 which in order to comply requires a risk assessment of the hazards, also under the new CDM 2007 Regulations you will need to prove that the work has been planned and the nature of the control measures that have been introduced.

Should an injury or fatality occur the HSE would most likely prosecute you and your company under either Section 2(Duties of employers to employees) and/or Section 3 (Duties of employers to others affected by their undertaking e.g. sub/contractors employees)of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. To this would be added the breaches of other regulations.

The Approved Codes of Practice (ACOPs)are out there - get hold of a copy if you are not familiar with them - ignorance of the facts is not an excuse in a court of law.

On a personal note I would make the comment that you would be best advised to leave this job well alone, your employer seems to have an overbearing influence on the decision that you are having to make, which may go some way to mitigating your position in court but would not relieve your guilty conscience if something did go wrong and you have a fatality on your hands simply because of some [expletive deleted] poor planning.

Regards
Granville

Posted By Adrian Watson
Granville,

With great respect, the need for a permit to work is determined by the level of risk; therefore whether it is a wet or dry pit is of relevance as this determines whether the space is a confined space. Just because a space has restricted access or egress does not by itself make it a confined space.

A dry pit is not of itself a confined space whilst a wet pit always will be. Regardless of the type of pit I can assume that there is always a need for a safe system of work for work in an area with restricted access and egress.

Regards Adrian

Posted By Granville Jenkins
OK I hold my hand up the bit about entering in an emergency was a little lucid - I would have assumed that those entering in such circumstances would be competent and knowledgeable of the hazards associated with entering the confined space and take the necessary precautions as opposed to the individuals who have gone running in where angels dare to tread and suffering a similar fate to the person they have attempted to rescue (which has happened only too often) I believe one recent incident took the lives of 3 people, not sure of the facts but I believe the uncle went in to rescue his brother and a nephew went in to rescue the Uncle, all 3 were asphyxiated! The problem was that the people who went into the tank were not knowledgeable enough to know of the dangers, went in blind and paid with their lives.

Getting back to Naomi's subject detail, she has mentioned that the area was a 'sewage pit' the fact it is in a warehouse raises other H&S issues however NO ONE should enter a sewage pit until the air has been sampled to ensure that the air has sufficient oxygen and it is safe to enter - the deaths that I mentioned occurred when the individuals went into a 'cess pit/septic tank' where the residue 'excrement' had eaten-up so much of the oxygen that the air could not support life - this is the dilemma that Naomi is now faced with.

It cannot be overemphasized that this is one of the most hazardous environments in which to work and no one should enter such an area without a permit to work nor until all safety checks have been carried out. Any reputable company would refuse to enter such a space until they were certain that an air test had been carried out and that safety checks had been carried out and safeguards have been put in place to facilitate an emergency recovery.

Regards
Granville