Posted By Steve99Jones Whilst I haven't come from the tools, I have come from the construction industry and am now a full time Health and Safety professional (CMIOSH). My background is as a Chartered Civil Engineer, and one of the main things that actually brought me into the world of health and safety was the poor standards of health and safety support being offered by some other health and safety professionals. I found it increasingly difficult to understand how some health and safety practitioners could call themselves (construction) health and safety professionals, they clearly did not understand the nature of the construction/building industry or the risks and hazards involved. I can therefore fully appreciate the concerns that have been expressed to you and I would always suggest that any safety advisor/consultant working in the construction industry must have construction industry experience, and this does not mean that someone who has been working as a construction safety advisor for 10 years. It means someone who has worked in the construction industry. With the launch of the new CDM ACOP it is refreshing to see that the HSE are also begining to understand this as well, hence the need for the CDM Co-ordinator to have construction/design experience, and also for contractors to have access to specific 'Construction Safety Advice' as well as 'General Health and Safety Advice'. With regards to advisors with qualifications but without the experience, anyone who applies themselves can gain a NEBOSH certificate, it is not that difficult. But even then this only relates to qualifications in Health and Safety, NOT construction. Also Competence is clearly a combination of both Qualifications AND Experience, so someone with a NEBOSH Certificate or Diploma and no experience could never be classed as competent, though they could of course work under the supervision of another competent person, but how many years would they need to do this for? Steve

Posted By Raymond Rapp It is an interesting and valid question and not just peculiar to the construction but applies to all 'specialist' and high risk industries. From my perspective a person should have both a good knowledge of the industry and associated hazards as well as any formal qualifications. I work in the rail industry and have done for over twenty years, it does not make me an expert, but I am familiar with most aspects of the industry. Within my role I need a certain amount of construction knowledge, but I would not consider myself competent as a construction h&s advisor - NEBOSH Construction Certificate or not. Just my humble opinion. Ray

Posted By Crim So I'm not competent then! My background is 25 years fire service, (Station Officer) from leaving school, then into industrial health and safety. The last 8 years specialising in construction, mainly CDM projects for a shopfitting company, and the past 3 years self employed - mainly construction. Various training courses including CDM, NVQ levels 3 and 4, Access Scaffolding etc. I undertake risk assessments including Fire, and provide method statements and training, including site induction training on a regular basis. I never have, and never will pick up a "tool" on a construction site as that part of the business is best left to those who are trained and experienced, but I see myself as a good manager of health and safety who is never questioned about my ability, in fact frequently praised by other construction professionals, CDM-C and MD's), for the high standard of work I provide. I pick up new clients from recommendations and since going self employed three years ago have never had to "seek" new work, it always finds me. Fire risk assessers do not have to be ex fire service as they become "competent" by training, knowing thier business, and following the accepted format for fire risk assessment. I'm sure some of you will try to pick all sorts of holes in what I say but I don't believe you have to have been on the tools to be a safety adviser in any form of work. Good health and safety is provided by conscientious people who are good at what they do because they put the effort in. My CMIOSH came from being RSP, that because I have a broad range of H & S experience. Some CMIOSH now do not have that broad range due to changes in the way CMIOSH is gained. I don't criticise them so why criticise someone like me?

Posted By Chris Packham Why just construction? Surely this argument could be applied to any sector of industry. Or would having gained a NEBOSH certificate or diploma qualify you to provide safety advice in anything from a nuclear power station to an offshore oil platform, of course, via a pharmaceutical manufacturer? I take the view that what is important for any health and safety advisor is to know their limitations and know when to decide that specialist help might be needed. The basic considerations may be similar, but there are many variations and no one person can be an expert in all fields of health and safety, or knowledgeable about all the different workplaces that exist. I hold no "professional" qualifications. There aren't any relevant to my special area of interest and expertise in health and safety. Unfortunately, I often encounter actions and policies in workplaces that are counter-productive, sometimes implemented by qualified health and safety people, who haven't realised how complex my particular field can be. Perhaps health and safety personnel should remeber the slogan: "The danger arises when you don't know that you don't know!" Chris

Posted By KEVIN O'KANE As someone who started life as a time served plumber , and has worked as a adviser in a construction industry i think it has help to build relationships ...which is what the job is about as far as I am concerned. Did enjoy one site visit were I commented on the bad standard of some pipework ...was overheard by person who had done it "what would you know whats good and whats bad"....suit jacket off and hung on scaffold, loosen tie and proceed to bend copper pipe and put up against his ..."that will be about it" I say...put jacket back on ,leave walk to car, and drive out gate PRICELESS!!!

Posted By Crim Kevin, you may have enjoyed that site visit but I wonder what the plumber thought of you - "smart a**e" I should think. Not very professional to make a site operative feel small! You should have used the "arm around the shoulder" method to get him on your side. Good communication is essential, and so is the expectation that everyone on site has been appointed so as to match their individual expertise with the job they are asked to perform. I don't necessarily know everyone's job but I can communicate the health and safety message in a way they can understand. The best approach is to take a step back and look at the big picture, then we can see what is needed. Also think about who might be looking at us and make sure we get the job right first time thus avoiding criticism of ourselves. I think I'm digressing a bit but ther you are!

Posted By mrs.seed Dont spoil his memory, due to the nature of the job, the 'arm round the shoulder' approach is sometimes going to get you the 'punch where it hurts' you have to use the right approach at the time - besides wouldnt you have been tempted! I work in the construction industry and have always found it helpful to have been a site engineer before I fell off the wagon into health and safety. I dont know if its 'female in a mans world' thing - I've always ignored that and got on with the job in hand - but as soon as people hear that I used to be where they are, you can see them relax and respect what you say a lot quicker. The one thing that will trip you up on site ( and I imagine most industries) is knowing the terminology used.

Posted By Gff I can be seen regularly plying my trade on site in between meetings Does wonders for your credibility

Posted By B Smart I personally don't think it matters if you got your elf and safety experience in an other industry, rather than in construction, especially if it an industry which has a better elf and safety record. Lets face it, the construction needs new ideas as the present accident/incident rate is simply not good enough. I believe that coming from a construction background might gain you brownie points with the boys, but your elf and safety experiences might be lacking in substance, compared to someone involved in safety who comes from an industry with a good safety record. B. Smart

Posted By Ian G Hutchings I think there can be misconceptions around what makes people effective health and safety professionals. Qualifications are in reality a small part of the equation; but are necessary. To answer the original post I believe you do need experience, but this can be less if there is a willing and able senior H&S practitioner on hand to coach and guide. We all have to start somewhere. There are some practitioners who may have less experience but are excellent influencers and can ask the right questions: they are more effective than old hands who are totally stuck in their ways, who have never had any access to other industries. I believe (will probably get shot for saying this!) that the one of the construction industries biggest issues is not listening to people outside. Opening minds and knocking down mental barriers will go a long way to learning how to do things better. The current stats clearly show that the current situation isn't working. Cheers Ian

Posted By Ian G Hutchings Hi Steve I do agree that there is obviously some excellent work being done and in no way would I wish to offend anyone. Looking back my comment is probably too general; though it is based on many experiences I have had. However what I have found is that the hard work and efforts from some of the leading firms are now filtering down the supply chain, which is great. Something I seem to keep coming across is clients not being willing to pay for good quality advice. Maybe because H&S is not seen by some as a business value, they always seek the lowest denominator. The main areas of concern are really on the small to medium sites and SME contractors. Unfortunately it is these smaller contracts where the majority of fatalities appear to happen. I was at a contractors last week who knew hardly anything about CDM, though it applied to some of their work and they were CHAS approved etc. Probably not willing to pay our fees though! Hopefully the pressure from the supply chain plus some good and practical advice will help these smaller businesses out. Cheers Ian

Posted By B Smart Martyn, you are correct when you state that “Industries with better records often are better because they have less risk”, however it could be argued that you took my response to the question out of context in the wrong way. If you take the response that I made and put it into a medical context it might be more appropriate to suggest that it would be like asking a British Doctor to work in Africa! However I do understand why you responded the way you did. Steve99Jones I have to take issue with your comments “As for B Smart's comments on other industries with better safety records, well what can you really say to such comments as those making such comments really do not understand the issues on site, which goes back to the question raised in the original posting!!” Making this comment on a public forum is both insulting and untrue. I find this kind of comment from a fellow IOSH member disheartening and definitely not what I would expect from a Professional in Health and Safety. I do not expect everyone on this forum to agree with all of my opinions all the time, and I do expect to see people disagree with me from time to time, but what I do not expect is a personal insult for holding an opinion which might not be of the norm. For your information I work in the Offshore Construction Industry and also consult in the Construction Industry onshore. I do come from a construction background albeit along time ago. My opinions on the question asked on this thread are formed by my experiences in both these industries, and my training through the TUC where I have had the great pleasure of sharing knowledge and experiences with people from many different industries, including Rail, Prison Warders, Police, Fire Services, Nuclear, Catering to name a few. Each industry has it’s own unique methods and systems and sharing best practices with people from these industries has highlighted the fact that yes the Construction Industry is hazardous, but there are other industries that are just as hazardous, if not more hazardous. In my opinion the difference is in the Safety Culture! If anyone takes issue with what I say please feel free to email me direct. B. Smart

Posted By AlB Sorry.... hadn't finished There are factions of construction that I do not deem myself competent to advise upon. What I do in these instances is become familiar with the issues, learn the requirements and best practices and then work with the specialist contractors who are competent in the work and mutually work towards identifying the issues and solving them. They know what they need to do and I work withe them towards ensuring it is safe. When a practitioner comes along and thinks they know best without listenting to the facts from the trade, THAT is when problems arise - but that is problem arising due to personal appproach rather than a lack of experience in that matter.

Posted By JPK BTW: I started with a trade, then moved through the industry.... Supervisory, CIOB management level and now use the experience I have gained, quite successfully in H&S.

Posted By JPK Please excuse me Ian, I wasn't clear in my post. It was working as an assistant (learning the industry as such) within a Construction H&S Consultancy that I was refering to. Sorry if I wasn't clear. JPK

Posted By KCS thanks for your advise chaps, i would like to become a construction safety specialist and i have the following site experience i have done bricklaying and concreting(built a bbq) i have done earthworks (dug the allotment) i have done groundworks (laid a nice patio) i have done joiney (done some decking outside) i have done electical instalation (fitted outside lights around patio) i have done steelfixing (tied the bbq hob in) i have hired plant equipment from hss so with some of your posts all i need now is to do the NEBOSH Construction certificate and i'm away. I think i'll keep a construction health & safety book in the car for reference