Posted By Philip Bates
Hi Everyone

A training company we are about to employ to train some staff on the use of scissor lifts has asked that we have ahrnesses available for use on the machines and quoted Health and Safety (Don't they all).

I have just taken my NEBOSH General Cert exams and I have looked around for guidance but as far as I can tell Scissor Lifts do not require harnesses, and if one is in use it must be attached to the machine on a sepcific anchor point, whioch our machines do not have.

The machines are only used inside on a flat prepared surface and in between racking for visual checks and the Operators are not allowed to lean over the rails.

Do we need harnesses?

Posted By Philip Bates
Thanks for that Jim.

From what I can tell if they are boom type then we would need them but as far as I can tell there is some abiguity regarding the scissor lifts, the pictures shown on the link do show both types the scissor lift operator does not seem to be wearing any fall restraint or harness.

Anybosy else got any experience with this type of thing?

Posted By Philip Bates
Hi Jim

I see, our's are used primarily for visual checks on pallet locations in racking, the racking itself is only just wide enough to accomodate the lift.

The lift is not used for picking stock or anything outside of the rails.

I understand the use of the harness, however surely if there are no anchor points highlighted on the machine then it could be dangerous to use a harness anyway?

Posted By Robert K Lewis
The use of harnesses on scissor lifts is not required by the HSE and as GW states there is no legal requirement. Again if we say we need restraints on this equipment then by similar logic we would also insist on them for scaffold use to stop climbing on handrails. It is plainly a nonsense and it might suggest your trainer needs to be more closely examined for competence.

We seem to have entered an era when harnesses/belts are provided for everything, as a substitute for proper supervision in many instances. It is also arguable that the use of harnesses may actually increase the tendency to stand on rails as the operative now feels secured against falls.

I am a definite "do not need to use"

Bob

Posted By Jim Walker
Phillip,

I guess they are A*** covering.
From their point of view understandable.
From what you describe I now agree not required.

I think your RA needs to state why you chose not to follow the advice (about restraint) on that HSE link I gave you.

Posted By CFT
Robert

I find the case you present difficult to argue against; I am however only too aware of the habit of climbing onto the rails no matter how well trained the operatives are and how well it is supervised, this poor practice continues all to frequently.

For that reason and that reason alone, when I have operatives on site in scissors which is pretty much daily, I will have them wear limited length restraint lanyards, thus restraining them from leaving the safety of the platform as identified earlier by Jim Walker; I see no BK consideration with this practice and it forms part of the overall SSOW within our group. It works for me so I shall continue this (IMO) best practice, I agree however there is no legal requirement to do so, but as we all know, this is a minimum legal requirement and it does not mean that it can't be exceeded; I do, regularly.

CFT

Posted By Robert K Lewis
CFT

You are describing operatives who are not competent and the CDM 07 regulation 4 answer is quite clear: If you fail to ensure operatives behave in the appropriate manner the company is not competent as a contractor. The situation continues because we allow it to do so by default. I rather think they do it because at least one of the supervisors permits it to happen.

Discipline some supervisors over this and I think you will find a marked change in behaviour. I found it worked a tonic when some of the subcontractors thought they could dictate to the PC how the site should be run!!!

Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis
CFT

Better use the restraint belts on scaffolds then as the same arguements apply:-) I am deeply concerned that we go over the top such that the equipment is ignored and not properly used even when it is needed.

It is important that we are logical in our approach as operatives are quick to spot the discrepancies in logic. I have indeed managed scissor lifts without incident for many years without the need for restraint. The operatives once they knew the rules did not climb on the guardrails and the supervisors knew to enforce any deviation. I suspect that many of your supervisors were prepared to overlook the climbing and thus led you into enforcing a restraint rule.

As you say however it works for you, but it does not necessarily work for others, especially when there is no attachment point:-)

Bob

Posted By Gff
If they clip in in the first place!

Posted By Simon Dean
We also use a scissor lift for doing stock / rack checks (as i vetoed the use of the safety cage), however not is it only company and site policy, as per the finding of my Working at Height Risk Assessment (which surprisingly no one has mentioned) it was determined that a harness and lanyard was required for the following reasons:

a) Although doing visual checks, if they can't see the code on box, the temptation is there to lean out or stand on the rails to turn the box round.

b) Its human nature to try and do things to make life easy, so standing on the rails to get something will and can occur, because who can
see what they are doing 9+ meters in the air.

c) These things wobble, even when stationary in the air, if u have a tall operative, they can over balance.

d) Why even take the risk of someone falling out and going splat, if all they have to do is where a harness. They have to do a pre-start check on the scissor lift, so they are capable of doing one on the harness.

I specifically asked for a scissor lift with harness points when we haired one, it wasn't a problem.

So as people quite often like to say, carry out a Risk Assessments (Working at Height) and see what controls are in place to stop people falling.

So its not a legal requirement, but neither is most if not all PPE, its not a legal requirement to wear safety boots on a construction site, its a requirement of the Risk Assessment.

Posted By Simon Dean
Oh i don't allow misuse of a scissor lift, but how do you supervise someone who is way, way up in the air?

Posted By Alan Woodage
How can you justify using Harnesses in a Scissor Lift, where is the real risk???
Operators climbing on handrails?? If they are going to do this they will UN clip to do it. Unless it is a one man basket, say 600mm Square how are you going to stop them climbing anyhow??
Example 4M long 1.5M wide scissor lift platform, it is designed to create a flat stable work platform the operative / s can walk around on to access the work area. what is the point of tying them up in a corner so they cant move??
Yes Harness every time in a boom where the catapult risk exists or the platform can be positioned at angles of incline.
NO Never in a scissor lift.

Posted By steve e ashton
Simon.

There is no requirement to undertake a 'work at height risk assessment'. The WAH duty (Reg 6)is to take account of the risk assessment carried out under Reg 3 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regs.

Your risk assessment conclusions MAY be correct in your circumstance of use.

HOWEVER your WAH assessment appears to show that PPE is required that is inappropriate for the equipment used Your equipment may not be suitable for the purposes for which you have bought it. Does your Provision and Use of Work Equipment Risk Assessment correlate with your work at height risk assessment - and have you considered whether the findings of your Personal Protective Equipment Risk Assessment are relevant?

Sorry, but excessive bureaucracy is a pet hate of mine. I wouldn't normally suggest or consider a restraint harness for scissor lift use, for all the reasons given in earlier postings. But neither would I want to document that 'significant finding' in three or more different risk assessments!

Steve

Posted By Gff
when i say basket i mean platform..... just so you know i am not talking about Booms

Posted By Gff
Thanks for your commendation

Very much appreciated I dot run a tight ship

G'

Posted By Robert K Lewis
Simon

I do not think anybody is actually meaning to criticise what you have decided to do - simply say that it is unecessary in any context that will likely be encountered.

The lack of trust in operatives to follow training can be an example of a management that does not have full confidence in local supervision to control activities - I mean here in the sense of "production" supervision, not the H&S adviser, specifically.

I well remember being mentored by Peter McKie, chair of HSENI, that if people start to use their PPE when you appear - you have an attitude problem. If they continue without the PPE then you have a training problem. If people simply climb on handrails then one has to suppose that the training programme was deficient in some way as it did not produce the correct learning outcomes ie safe working. A training company asking for harnesses as a matter of routine implies for me that the company will suggest to operatives that it is permitted to stand on guardrails if a harness is worn.

As for supervising when operatives are at height I think many supervisors would have no problem getting their voice heard if the issue was a quality/ wrong job/ causing disruption type request. It is a lack of will on the part of the local supervision that allows things to happen continually not one of immediate communication. This is not a criticism of you but perhaps a guidance/steer that you sometimes need to look behind the issues and problems that operatives and supervisors throw in your eyes in the hope that their shortcomings are not seen.

Bob