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Posted By Darth Clipboard
Good morning to all Health & Safety fans!
I'm a CDM Co-ordinator and require a CSCS card. I've searched the CSCS site and contacted them directly, but they keep failing to answer my question.
Which card is correct for my occupational area - I 'assume' it's the PQP card but I don't like to make assumptions.
Does anyone out there know the answer for definite?
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Posted By AHS
I telephoned their HQ and got nowhere sorry.
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Posted By alex mccreadie
Darth
If you look at the Helen Harvey post on CSCS cards you will realise what you are up against it.
Good Luck Alex
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I could be totally cynical and say make your own but you need to go to the Green Dragon in Lincoln to get it put on the CSCS database.
The other alternatives are not to worry about it altogether or just get a visitors card - you do not need anything else. It has become an exercise in status symbols and has no proven value in my opinion.
Bob
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Posted By Peter Leese
Let us know how you get on.
My history is:
CDM co-ordinator card failed
H&S Manager card failed
Visitors card IQ test for 4 year olds PASSED
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Posted By MAK Hi Darth, The card you will need is platinum. You need an NVQ level 4 Occupational Safety Health or professional membership at one of the listed associations. Use the link below and select Professional Membership Route http://www.cscs.uk.com/RunScript.asp?page=82&p=ASP\Pg82.asp#Moreplat.
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Posted By MAK
by the way.. they are still updating the website, so if you have any queries phone them.
for example the list of appropriate professional memberships shows a roofing association but doesn't show IOSH or Association for Project Safety.
A phone call confirmed IOSH is one of the approved memberships however APS isn't. This is contrasting information from the competency criteria in the CDM 2007 ACOP
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Posted By MAK
Just read Hazel's post, where she writes that IOSH isnt a recognised membership in the CSCS scheme, but 2 CSCS scheme operators and through them a manager confirmed to me 10 mins ago that IOSH is recognised!
If you do phone them, get them to give their answer in writing!
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Posted By Gff
Platinum???
Rubbish he's a CDMC not a manger, this is for site resident personnel
the White card covers all other Construction associated occupations or a YELLOW PQP card NOT a Yellow visitors card.
Some times i think folk are going for the wrong cards hence all the confusion
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Posted By Gff Actually MAK your right!!!!!!! List here http://www.cscs.uk.com/R...anagement&page=118&p=ASP\Pg118.asp Planning Supervisor got accreditation on the 30th of June 2007 2 months after the profession changed to CDMC. My My CSCS guys are on the ball. Pick a card any card........
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Posted By MAK
Gff I know I'm right, I got my platinum card May last year.
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Posted By Gff
It is all very contrary though the link you (MK) posted IOSH is not listed in the platinum list but IOSH is in the PQP, and the dates don't all tie up
I can see a Site H&S manager needing a gold, plat, or black card but can't see the point in a CDMC needing one where a PQP would be fine as they would not necessarily be site based.
I hope this gets ironed out soon because i need to renew my card and don't really want to go through all this hassel.
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Posted By MAK
Hi again Gff, Re: the dates mix up- I think youre getting that from the link you posted, the date 30/6/07 is the date given as the industry accreditation closure date. I have no idea what that means however the information I give above is taken directly from telephone conversations with CSCS today.
The reason we need one is because CDM-C's actually do get unleashed now and then from our desks and undertake site surveys/site audits, to ensure an appropriate H&S management system is in place. i.e put into practice what we are supposed to preach.
There are no prizes for holding any specific colour and the problems with the system are too many too count, however the objective to ensure everyone has at least a basic understanding of H&S on sites is a good one.
I know of several senior designers being put through for the occasional visitor to site/van driver Yellow card because the company they worked for had the attitude of having their managers hold platinum and black only. what a lot of pretentious nonsense!
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
There are two schools of thought as to who the CDM Co-ordinator is.
If you follow the view that it is the organisation employed by the client who is, the there is no need for a specific CDM-C card.
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Posted By MAK
it also depends on which contractor has the site, for example many companies have the policy that if you dont have a CSCS card you will not be permitted on the site.
Depends on what your CDM-C scope of work includes.
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Posted By Peter Leese
Depends on the contractor - for example many companies including MCGs have the policy that if you don't have a CSCS card it doesn't matter and you will be permitted on the site.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Platinum, gold silver tin lead whats the need for all of this array of colours? TWO only are needed "resident" and "visitor". Unless you are resident on site you should never be unescorted. It is becoming a rapid status symbol and serves no possible H&S benefit.
The debate about who is in and who is not for me examples the absolute chaos of a system that has become a hydra incapable of any real thought. We need to rapidly get away from this scheme and find a better way of assessing competence on site, as required by the acop, which actually states that the card can be considered only as a basic training card NOT competence evidence.
The more we pander to the people managing the CSCS fiasco the worse it will get. Chewing a brick wall does not make it a better wall, it simply wears down teeth.
Bob
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
I have made this observation before and believe that it is worth making again. CSCS cards and the like are an unnecessary requirement for entry onto construction sites. Every contractor, sub-contractor, designer etc. who has been engaged by a client have already proved their competence and the competence of their employees to be on a construction site during the selection process. Thereafter it is sufficient only that they demonstrate that they are an employee of a contracted company with legitimate business on the site and that they have been provided with appropriate site specific induction.
regards, Philip
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The only thing I would add to Philip is that the supervision then monitor the competence of the people so employed. If you do not trust people to do this then why employ them?
Silly question really - they are the cheapest!!
Bob
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Posted By GrantD
Afternoon all!
It looks like no-one can answer the question then - clear as mud!!
We CDMCs need a card because CDM07 acops says so - bottom line!! In order step on site, get a card or else your CEO could end up in the dock!!
Finally, the Planning Supervisor approval for the managerial card RAN OUT on 30/06/07 - CDMCs are in limbo!!!
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Posted By Gff
So.... PQP Card then?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Nope
Who needs more than a visitor?
Only the resident on site and even then it is a waste of space for H&S!!
Let us find a better path
Bob
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
Grant,
There is no requirement in the Regulations or the ACoP to have a CSCS card. Any reference to the CSCS in the ACoP is by way of example only of the type of assessment/certification that will demonstrate particular levels of competence. There are many other ways both listed in the ACoP and unlisted. See paragraphs 193 – 240 for details of the wide range of considerations regarding competence.
Philip
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Posted By GrantD
With all due respect Philip - I know there are many ways to prove competence, whether they be written in the ACoPs or shouted from the highest echelons of Mount Olympus!
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and, we will only find out what & who is truly competent from the court cases as of April 2008!
However, as the CSCS test is heavily implied in the ACoPs (short of saying get it or one like it - you have been warned!) and it would be foolish to ignore - even we as educated and legally skilled H&S Practitioners understand this and should be backing our CEOs for forcing these upon the workforce.
However, the question still remains - WHICH CARD FOR A CDM C?
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Grant,
My interpretation of Appendix 4 of L144 is the competence of the organisation to undertake that function rather that the individual which is much more important, therefore is it necessary for there to be a specific CDM Co-ordinators card?
As there is no specific NVQ or professional qualification for this role, how can there be a CSCS CDM-C card?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Fully agree with Arran
No Profession called CDMC therefore no PQP card for the role.
Grant
I would far prefer directors and managers to ensure that proper management of competence is maintained in the organisation. In any case the regulations state that people must be competent or supervised by a competent person. CSCS has no meaning then as the regulations clearly do not envisage all operatives being competent!!! It does however envisage that all organisations must be competent.
Bob
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Posted By GrantD
Gents I'm well aware of all that!
You are correct in stating that it is the organisation that must be competent - not the person, however, there is no CSCS 'organisation' card to cover this issue! Therefore back to square 1
I'm also aware that novices can be supervised by a competent person, but these personnel would still require (unless you where an excellent lawyer) a Trainee Card, before they stepped foot on a Construction site.
CSCS is not specifically about 'competence' - this term is being stretched - it's about being aware of your construction site environment in the hope you go home at the end of the day.
In real terms - a CDMC is a profession (trust me I know many of them) and they have 'similar' influences to construction sites as anyone else on the project design team. Additionally, they are just as vulnerable to construction site hazards as anyone else on a site whether they are an organisation or an individual!
Stop hiding beind legal smoke screens just to have a 'debate' on an issue that is easy to speculate about and help to figure out what a type of card a CDM C needs!!!
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Posted By Philip McAleenan
Grant,
There are a number of very competent people giving advice on this thread and they are laying down no legal smokescreens. Listen to what is being said, and said correctly; there is no NEED for a CSCS card for CDM coordinators. If you feel that you personally want one, or your client is asking for one before appointing you, renew the one you had, there is no harm in that. What is harmful is any insistence that such cards are legally required.
Philip
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Posted By GrantD
Okay.
I'm aware there is no need for CSCS card...however, as a CDMC I need to prove competence to not only do my job (which I have), but also to stand on a construction site and...
1. In my OPINION, I feel the best, quickest and easiest way to do it is via a CSCS card.
2. So does my employer
All I advice on is which card suits the job title of CDM C the best?
That's all...
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
If you haven't already got a CSCS card, the regular visitors card should be sufficient as the will show that you have undertaken the basic touch screen test.
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Posted By Davelfc
Gents oh and ladies of course,
The window closed for the Planning Supervisor (CDM) Card, Industry accreditation on 30 Jun 07. This was nothing to do with the legislation change (this was always going to close on this date). Once the accreditation windows closes as with all CSCS generally, and I believe open for 12 or 24 months and this window was open for a long period of time. According to CSCS Individuals now have to demonstrate competence by NVQ route. (as with all cards)
This one keeps going round and round, I am assuming that now that the name has changed in the legislation that the card name may change unless the reason they called it Planning Supervisor (CDM). If they change the name then I suppose I will have to stump up another £25.00?
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Davelfc,
An interesting point. As far as I am aware there is not a specific NVQ for the delivery of the Planning Supervisor or CDM-C role, therefore there is no longer a formal route to obtain this card.
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Posted By holyterror72
There actually was an NVQ for Planning Supervisors. It was one of the recognised entry routes to CIOB membership. I havent done it though.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Holyterror
That was in the bad old days when everyone was trying to create a profession. Unfortunately the thing has stuck - hence the talk of a CDMC card.
Bob
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