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Posted By Alexander Falconer
Here is a poser for you construction bods out there.
We supply, & install domestic central heating systems for local authorities & housing associations as such this comes under the requirements of CDM Regs and notifiable projects etc etc.
My current dilemma is that we are covering a project for a large city council, as such the project area covers, well a large area. We have 3 installation teams, a supervisor & 1 manager within the area, however they could be as much as 15 miles apart (possibly more).
The council have rejected my H&S plan as being inappropriate and have insisted that we provide appropriate welfare facilities???
I am trying to argue the fact that it is infeasible to do so, as these teams are normally classed as transient workers, and this is falling on deaf ears.
I acknowledge, not coming from the construction industry, I am still gaining knowledge everyday, and it is one hell of a learning experience when you get some jobsworth CDM coordinator/planning supervisor quoting what you can and cannot do.
I feel it is not reasonably practicable to instill welfare facilities given the nature and area size of the project.
Can anyone advise on supporting material to lend credibility to an argument in my favour?
If this is not possible and I have to instil some facilities, do I provide for each team, or place in a central location, knowing full well this could move within 24 hours, etc.
Also if I have to do so, can anyone advise on potential suppliers of such mobile welfare units (inc toilets)
We also have similar situations within other areas, however do not have the problems that I am experiencing with this particular one.
Alex
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Posted By MAK
sorry another jobsworth CDMC here, but the HSE have recently stated (to a colleague querying exactly the situation you describe) that for such sites, facilities have to be reachable by foot within 5 mins.
For example, your if one of your operatives comes does with a bad stomach bug say for example not washing his hands while eating his lunch, is it appropriate for such an operative to have to drive for 10 mins through a possible rush hour to reach some facility? No. Is it appropriate for them to have to consider to use the great outdoors? No.
We, the jobsworths/CDM-C do not create the legislation that applies to such issues, but we do have to advise you on it. The implications of the welfare regs are not new but seem to be creating confusion resulting from them being integrated to the CDM 2007, has anything changed?
What some jobsworths/CDM-C's do do, however is to try to find a practical solution to assist, in this case is it feasible to ask your client to allow you to use an empty house? or nearby council facilities such as community centres/ libraries with site mangers permissions etc.
Your client, has to ensure you have appropriate resource i.e money and time afforded to supply facilities which are appropriate for the job.
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Posted By Merv Newman
I fully agree with MAK. And just think of the production time lost if everyone has to drive 5 or more miles every time they need a pee.
Check almost any construction site in your area and you will find that they have appropriate facilities. Some are portable, others are tow-able. (which I think is what you are looking for) Just check occupancy before hooking up.
Isn't it nice to see that someone is taking employee welfare into consideration before the job starts ?
Merv
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Posted By John Holland1
AS far as I am aware Construction Information Sheet 46 Provision of welfare facilities at
transient construction sites is still current. At a CDM 2007 Training event that I attended earlier in the year, I was advised that this guidance is still relevant under CDM 2007.
Regards
John
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Posted By Pat Hannaway
Alexander,
I have to agree with the previous contributor. At a recent seminar that I attended (hosted by HSE), they were adamant that the welfare requirements would be enforced. Their intepretation of the Regulations was that if an employee is working away from a fixed depot / yard / building for more than half a day, they expect the employer to provide the welfare facilities as set out in Schedule 2 of the new CDM regulations ACOP.
They suggested that as a minimum for short duration sites, they expected a portable toilet, handwashing facilities (could be disposable hygenic wipes / water container with hand cleanser / paper towels) and at least a crew cab or dedicated section of a van for eating meals (no tools or equipment).
They had no sympathy for small businesses with transient workforces. Their appraoch was that in the 21st century, they did not expect, nor would they tolerate Victorian working conditions.
It was also made clear that Clients will be held accountable if adequate welfare facilities are not provided. Many public sector Clients have had tbis message hammered home to them by their health and safety / legal advisers.
The HSE did however make it clear that they expected Clients to adequately resource projects. No doubt the Council that you are trying to win work from will argue that within their overall budget for the contract they have allowed for this.
I suspect that many other contractors will be in the same boat. If you price for the welfare facilities you risk losing the contract in favour of a "cowboy". The Council will no doubt argue that they are seeking the same standards / facilities from all contractors, and will insist on minimum welfare provision from all of its contractors.
It may be worth contacting your trade body to see if they have been able to negotiate discounts for portable welfare facilities: I cannot see any way of successfully arguing with the Council or HSE: the Regulations are now law.
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Posted By Bruce Wayne
I agree with the above postings and wish to add that clients have a duty under CDM 2007 to allow for sufficient time and resources to plan the project and ensure contractors provide adequate welfare facilities. The client cannot insist that contractors breach legislation which includes welfare requirements.
There is no arguement if the contractor does not price the job sufficiently and can't afford to supply the facilities!!
If a CDMC is involved in the project, should the welfare facility arrangements not have been addressed in the pre-tender information pack? This should ensure that all contractors are pricing for the same facilities. Normally welfare is a quoted sum on a tender document.
There are companies who provide welfare vehicles based on a transit van - see www.wheelwa[expletive deleted].co.uk (Mobile Combi Canteen/Toilet)
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Posted By C.J.
The provision of welfare facilites should have been agreed pre-contract. if it wasn't made clear when tendering then i personally wouldn't supply toilet facilities.
I disagree to a certain extent about transient workforces having full welfare facilities, even if the HSE expect it, as it would be almost impossible to stay competitve and, whether we like it or not, the first priority in business is to make money. If the HSE cracked down on it and made it a level playing field then fair enough but i think this issue is low on their priority list.
The company i represent have appoximately 100 transient sites every day, most only lasting 1 day. We provide a sink and washing facilities in each work van but only provide toilets if the site lasts more than 3 days. For short term sites we usually highlight service stations or public conveniences in the method statement.
We have a very good H&S reputation & no client has had an issue with us over this.
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Posted By Alexander Falconer
I don't disagree with the contents of the responses so far.
With regards to other projects, the local authorities/housing associations have no objections to us using client properties (void or not) as welfare facilities providing the customer care charter is adhered to, and that at the end of the day the property is left in the same state as it was before they commenced the works.
This particular authority is saying NO GO (irrespective of customer car charter/policy etc) to this, and in my opinion are being unreasonable.
Have managed to source some facilities that are deemed to suit our needs.
Thanks for all your assistance
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Posted By Dave Sutton Suggest you take a look at this - probably not much good on the hard shoulder of the M25 though !! http://www.bumperdumper.com/
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Posted By Bob Youel
councils are in a very good position to support their contractors as they have many facilities scattered throughout a borough that can easily be used so get the parameters sorted out at the tender stage
Many employers hide behind the 'transient worker' smoke screen as in the past I assisted in financial audits for various small / middle sized companies and found that plenty of money was being made however they would fight tooth and nail not to spend it on their workforce even in cases where the client was generious
On the other hand unless clients insist on 'level playing fields' the good employer will continue to lose out
The HSE should get at clients as well as contractors
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