Posted By Phillipe
Hi

Does Health and Safety actually exist in todays workplace?

Are employers/employees actually concerned about Health and Safety?

Do employers/emploees take it seriously?

Are employees still doing the same old thing...taking shortcuts, cutting corners, carrying on in the same manner they have for years on the basis that "it won't happen to me"?

I was driving up the Finchley Road on Tuesday afternoon and next to the BP garage just up from Swiss Cottage, a team of scaffolders were erecting scaffolding up against a large pub...possibly due to a refurb or maybe a new roof perhaps. As i was sitting in the traffic, which I invariably have to at this location I watched the "lads" going about their work. 25 -30ft off the ground, not a harness in site, no PPE, nothing. Balancing on planks of wood with sheer drops either side, I began to wonder whether anything we do in our jobs is relevant on the basis that this group of "lads" by the looks of things couldn't give a stuff about their safety or anyone elses for that matter.

That led me to the question, does H&S actually exist in the real world, the day to day run of the mill workplace...clearly in this case it did not.

It does annoy me when advice that is given by people such as ourselves is either paid lip service to, taken with a pinch of salt or just ignored completely.

I don't work in construction so it is diffcult for me to pass too much comment in that area, but in retail where I am employed, the risk of injury from both known and unknown hazards is still there, albeit possibly to a lesser extent than construction.

At what point do you stop and say to yourself, what more can I do?

Your thoughts....

Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Have been working in light construction for 6 months and have yet to meet a sub contractor that is able to deliver practicle safety on site.

What they have learned to do is employ a consultant which then enables them to produce excellent documentation.

may well be different in other fields and areas of the country.

My employer has some way to go and every now and again the company strays to far from the safe line.

But i try, and try, and try

Garry

Posted By Raymond Rapp
Phillipe

Health and safety does exist in some industries and some parts of the country. However, there are many barriers to overcome as well.

As you point out, those working on small construction projects and domestic work do find many ways to by pass good safety practices. Tenders often only reflect the cost of doing the job, not safety management.

I also believe that to some degree health and safety has become too prescriptive and complex. Therefore many have turned away from it completely. It is an issue that is dire need of addressing, but don't wait for the regulator to pick up the gauntlet!

Ray

Posted By CFT
Ray

Can I just pick up on paragraph 3 please? You say;
"I also believe that to some degree health and safety has become too prescriptive and complex.Therefore many have turned away from it completely"

If main stream UK H&S legislation were more prescriptive, it would at least go part way to removing incorrect interpretation and confusion, I believe it is the highly descriptive nature of current regulatory requirements and supporting ACoP's that 'may' in fact lead to a rejection by some.

Those are my thoughts Ray, others no doubt will disagree.

CFT

Posted By J Knight
Here's a thing; H&S is alive and well in the care industry. Sure, things still go wrong; you only have to look at this month's SHP to see yet another scalding in the bath. And even without that kind of extreme, there's a lot still amiss. However, on the whole it exists, and I know why.

H&S in Care is subject to a memorandum of understanding between CSCI/HCC & the HSE, under which H&S of service users is policed by CSCI/HCC. And your point is, Mr Knight? Well, CSCI/HCC visit at least twice every year, and they do ask about risk assessment, COSHH, Manual Handling and so on. They don't ask about H&S every time, of course, but the potential is always there. So every employer is being visited by an inspector, who may question H&S, at least twice a year. Can HSE match that level of scrutiny in other industries? I think not. Do I believe in self-regulation? Not in the slightest,

John

Posted By Phillipe
That is my point, the risk may well have been assessed and a safe sytem of work was written and produced by their H&S dept. That may well be the case, but from what I saw with my own eyes, balancing on planks of wood, 30ft up in the air, with no harness, PPE or any other obvious looking safety measure in place and members of the public wandering below, it looked like no precautions against injury to wither themselves or others were being considered...hence my question in the first place.

I saw nothing to suggest that the work was being carried out in a safe manner that would protect both scaffolding team and the public below.

Would you not expect to see PPE and fall arrest systems in use then given the circumstances outlined? I'd like to see your risk assessment if you think it is ok.

Phil

Posted By Phillipe
Tony

How can the managment of safety not be related to the incident I witnessed...surely it is all part of HSG 65?

As for football, I support Luton Town and the chance of anyone breaking their leg or even putting in the effort that may sustain such an injury in the name of my team is highly unlikely !

Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
For what reason would you pull your hair out? You do not own the behaviour of others, nor are you accountable, in law, for their misgivings. It is this attitude that gives Safety a bad name

Posted By Pete48
Phillipe,

Yes it does, just as it always has. It takes individual tenacity to push society towards many areas of social responsibility. A quick look at the history of H&S in the UK will find you many examples of how changes to legislation and acceptance into use have been driven by individuals.

Is it imperfect? It is as perfect as the average human being.

"At what point do you stop and say to yourself, what more can I do?"--When you decide that being a H&S professional is not for you.

Good question for a thread. Thanks

Posted By Tabs
Tony wrote "Certainly you had no control over the situation yet I presume you are a Safety Professional. That to me is the equal of a Police Officer walking past a crime and ignoring it because he had no jurisdiction.."

Being a written response, it's hard to tell the intonation - but I disagree with the analogy.

I would liken it more to a driving instructor choosing not to help someone having trouble parallel parking.

A safety professional has no right to walk onto a company's project and start wagging fingers. The Queen has not appointed me guardian of anything - unlike a Police Constable; EHO; HSE Inspector.

If there is a risk to life, a safety professional should report the situation to those who have been appointed (L.A. / HSE).

Posted By J Knight
Have to agree with Tabs on this one; I am empowered to instruct people only by virtue of my contract with my employer. I have no warrant or any other rights to interfere with the conduct of anybody else's undertaking. And if I tried, I would probably get a gobful, so what would be the point?

John

Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
John
That is exactly the point I am making. What control do you have, indeed what is your legal/moral/social obligation?
If your next door neighbour was using a whizzer to cut flags and was wearing flip flops do you engage him in conversation so that you can point out the dangers, or do you toddle off to buy your newspaper, say nothing, and when you return to be told that your neighbour has been taken to hospital with a badly gashed leg, you just shrug because you do not have any duty.
It proves a very important point that was relayed to me some years ago. The most important part of Safety is communication, and the reason so many Safety professionalls fail is that they cannot communicate.
Not difficult is it

Posted By J Knight
Tony,

Communication is what I do every day of my working life, and I do it well. However, it is a two way process; I may be talking in common sense but if I poke my nose into somebody else's business they may well be listening in outrage,

John

Posted By Chris Jerman
Phillipe, an excellent question and one well asked. Frankly we could have a whole conference dedicated to this one.

To give my perspective:

Sure, there are many who do take this very seriously - no question. But why is it that some don't? Part of this, I'm afraid lies at history's door. Going back to when I started (we had just had gas and electricity installed in our cave) safety was the province of the safety officer. This was particularly strong in industry (the place where things used to get made - now called China?). This person's role, given that our legislation was largely hazard driven and not people driven, was to wander around making sure hazards were controlled.

Production was a fast moving environment where the wheels could come off at moment's notice with pretty dire consequences. So a transient site like a building project would be visited by the safety police who'd stop the job if needs be. Simply because he was enforcing absolutes enshrined in the law. Actually employers found the rule driven stuff quite comforting. Black or white, it required no thinking.

OK roll forward to present day. Our employment demographic (and our legislation model) is much different and whilst people are injured at work, it's my view that they're largely being hurt in the same places as they were before - the bits that haven't really changed or gone to China.

Employment is at at a high, but in what jobs? Call centres, retail, leisure where quite frankly legislation or not, the opportunity for slicing people into little bits is not is not so common. I'm not a fan of Bird's Triangle as a predictor, but as a concepts it's viable. Back in industrial Britain, that shape was fair. What about now? It has to be a much flatter triangle overall. BUT and here's the big but.. we still have people trying to enforce the old standards on new these new workplaces, banning step stools, having risk assessments for photocopiers, wearing steel toecaps boots in a kitchen, goggles for conkers etc, whilst the areas that really need sorting - like your scaff example are going on around us. Construction has wised up it's true, I believe because they've realised that poor safety is a business risk - you don't get the work otherwise.

I don't feel that we've been prepared to fully let go of safety, mostly because we know that if we don't no-one else will do it. Look at stress as a recent example. Why is it that the HSE have been pushing this - and we've been picking it up? It's nothing to do with us. This is pure a management issue. What we're doing is picking up the pieces (ie stress, the outcome of poor management). This should have been directed at Boards - agreed? Managers should be managing safely, not us managing safety. There's a world of difference. The reason that those scaffolders were behaving poorly is not because they don't care about their safety, it's because their managers don't see it as their job either - it's yours! Now we all know that this is completely wrong but whilst ever we follow the same tack it's not going to change. I read these pages sometimes in complete dismay at the answer threads and ask myself how an employer would view such a response if they asked that question of their safety advisor. Our job must be to sort out what is important in our businesses given what we do and get managers to buy into 'doing less, but doing it well'. I work for a major retailer and I know have managers queuing up to get on courses because they acknowledged they they're scared of 'safety' and hear that there's possibly not as much as they thought to take care of and that I'm going to help them to look after the one or two things that they need to be on top off AND that all of that other ***p that they have can go in the bin. CoSHH assessments for glass clearer? I never heard such rubbish.

Ask yourself this. Are you seen as an active manager first and an advisor second or are you seen as an advisor first only consulted on safety matters? In my view this is the essential difference between a company this does it ALL well and one that sees safety an an extra.
What has to happen. That's a huge question, but has got to do with breaking the cycle. The vast majority of managers aren't trained to be managers. They get some training once they are managers and when you look at what they get told about 'safety, it's pitiful. Why would I be interested in going through the same safety stuff that a safety pro goes through? Tell me something different. Tell me how to manage my liabilities, explain to me how to prioritise using risk as a tool, explain what significance means as a concept and how reasonableness links to making decisions competently. But please don't give me a lecture on CoSHH in offices!

So when you ask is safty still around - the answer's well, yes, but way too much in some places and not enough in others.

Sorry, had a late night and feel a bit grumpy. I suspect that we won't reach a consensus on this issue Phillipe, but be heartened that there are many more who feel like you do. We have to keep going, but sometimes if the medicine ain't working, it's time to try another drug. We've been at this since 1802 and we've still not cracked it. Someone call a doctor!

Regards all

Chris

Posted By Raymond Rapp
Chris, I have to say an excellent piece of prose with some very good historical information. Also the most sensible comments I have read for a long time. I think he should be nominated to do a presentation at next years IOSH conference. It would be damned more interesting than some of the presentations!

Ray