Posted By James M There are many discussion points about CSCS on this forum. Firstly can I enlighten those that may not be familiar with CSCS, this is a Construction Skills Certification Scheme. Anyone can phone up today 0870 4178777 and book a test for whatever trade discipline you choose. The test will probably take you about 2-20 minutes and you will be given your results within a few minutes of completing the test. That is the simple part. What it doesn’t do and here is the big discussion point is make you a trained, skilled and competent individual even if it is accompanied by a NEBOSH certificate or the like. There is a misconception that having a skills card makes you able to walk on a construction site and do (including health and safety inspections) whatever role you want to an adequate standard. A majority of site personnel have these cards through grandfather rights and have had no formal training in their specific discipline. I can hear your brain churning away saying they have many years of experience and gained skills along the way. Experience is one part of competence but in my many accident investigations, insurance claims and court cases I have been involved in, no relevant and current training = big fine. So what is my message to this forum? Please understand the reasons for a CSCS card and ask yourself is this enough to make you (or others) competent to fulfil a role as a health and safety professional in the construction industry? There are so many trade disciplines and areas of work from demolition, scaffolding, excavations, plant equipment, asbestos, electrical and mechanical installation etc each one a speciality in its own right. Are you up to speed to inspect all these areas of works in line with current legislation and best practice? Will having a CSCS card give you these skills, train you to the correct standard and give you years of experience in the construction industry? I have used a health and safety professional as an example but this could be applied to any trade or professional discipline. IMHO a CSCS card is a starting point that the construction industry (and CDM 2007) has adopted to ensure the basic standards are in place. However, there is a lot more to this when proving competence when things go wrong.

Posted By Ron Hunter Am I missing the point? Probably. You say: “What it(CSCS) doesn’t do is make you a trained, skilled and competent individual” ????????????????????? You Ask: “Will having a CSCS card give you these skills, train you to the correct standard and give you years of experience in the construction industry?” The answer to that is surely obvious?

Posted By Robert K Lewis As it was only intended for trade skills originally and not even H&S it is a donkey now with added legs! The trade skill NVQ was right and still is right but not the touch screen. It is this that needs abolition to be replaced by something relevant to the industry needs and at a lower cost. As I have said elsewhere, I can provide up to 2 days training and, when coupled to grant, come out with some change for the cost of a CSCS renewal etc. Bob

Posted By GARRY WIZZ Much by accident and not being clever I happened to unearth some free training, All our engineers commence NVQ training in august through the TRAN TO GAIN SCHEME, this involves no cost to the employer. Also using european funding scheme to get qualification for electrician at no cost. Given that cost is the normal barrier,just for once its freeeeeeeeeeeee. Check it out, garry

Posted By Robert K Lewis Garry There are a very small number of the major trainers doing this. I know one company that could set training programmes up on sites and provide all training for free in many circumstances. This really can only suit major sites but it can be done. I cannot provide names on the air so to speak but am happy to pass people on privately to discuss the issues involved. Bob

Posted By Dave Wilson I think that you are missing the point. The majority of threads around this are why does a H&S person have to do the touch screen test with qualifications they have. Like to see you stop an FOD HSE Inspector without a card. It is OK if used properly in the correct context and this is certainly not one. Its a big money spinner and the MCG have the ethos but its the Construction skills people who are blocking everything.

Posted By JasonGould I must profess to not following this subject for some time now so the following may be irrelevent. I have almost but quit on the whole idea of CSCS and to some extent based on previous experience, am beginning to resent the scheme. It is easy to one to go on about skill this and skill and that NVQ Vs Classroom based are superior (the argument looks good at first but I am starting to think it is flawed. Here were my circumstances I get told by my Manager to do CSCS card as I may be refused entry on a construction site. I call the test centre and state that I do lots of site safety audits, have safety qualification and have worked in construction industry previously before becoming a consultant. Person on phone states that the site managers card may be best (note nothing mentioned at this point about NVQ) I booked and sat the mangers test and then got refused the managers card when I called for it. I ring CSCS for reason and they state NVQ4 skill based quals only. I say fair play, as I can understand that a Managers card is for a site manager after all. So I ask "what is best card for me to get onto sites and do my safety audits"? They say "we don't know", "you can try to appeal as the yellow site visitors card does not give you the right to walk round a site and do you job" I appeal to CSCS explaining my circumstances and have heard nothing since from them (Would not mind but I sent the original test certificate to them). For those DIE Hard CSCS backers out there going on about skill for this and skill for that, here is a small but significant fact for you, Even if I had worked in the industry for 2000 years, would that then make me the correct person to inspect all plant, equipment and other H&S issues to the depth that a specialist in that area would be able to? The answer to that is a clear no, No absolutely NO No one person can do such a job and be a master of so much. As previously mentioned on this site, Safety auditing is about looking at the whole in some depth and to some extent going down audit trails to highlight possible deficiencies within a particular area. If we (The safety Auditor) had to be qual based skilled on every H&S subject, you would have site appointment books absolutely full to the brim due to the different auditors required to inspect a particular area of H&S or plant. Go Imagine it (50 safety auditors on a site bugging everyone) I do not inspect slings or cranes etc, I just ensure that they are being inspected and that that person is competent to inspect them. I also look for obvious defects or ommisions i.e. key left in plant etc but my report never states that I have given it a clearance certificate and approved its use. The PC is responsible for all that stuff and ensuring it has been done. H&S is such a multidisciplinary and vast area yet at some point a person can and does reach a stage where he can give an valid opinion on site conditions and suggest improvements to be made. I do agree that some construction experience, and training is necessary to go onto a site to do such an audit. I do not agree that just because I never did the NVQ4, I can have no card of any use for my Job. (keep getting told the yellow card is no good for such work) Am I supposed to quit my current role and go back to working on site just to complete a NVQ to then come back and do the job I currently do? IMHO 8 years working in various skilled and unskilled jobs on building sites matched with numerous safety qualifications along with Grad Iosh and MIIRSM does give me the right to give some picture of conditions and areas requiring improvement on a construction site. Why can't CSCS see this and give us a card to suit (Except a pink one). I was hoping CSCS could put into writing that a yellow visitors card backed with evidence suggesting a sufficient knowledge of H&S will be enough for a safety professional to do his job when consulting. Am I missing the something? (please please please enlighten me) Someone please also advise me on what card I should have gone for?

Posted By James M Are we saying that any CMIOSH safety professional that has no construction experience is able to carry out a full site inspection picking up faults with scaffold, temporary works regarding strength and stability of tower crane bases and demolition? Is able to read, understand and advise on design drawings? Probably not, however passing a touch screen test will also not allow him/her to achieve this. I wouldn’t stop a HSE inspector coming on site but he would be escorted the same as any other non CSCS card holder. However I do know of an ex HSE inspector that was refused access to site because he though that working for the HSE for 35 years in manufacturing exempted him from CSCS.

Posted By David Bramall I must admit - I have actually lost the thread at the minute. I think I agree with James M but not sure. Anyway for what it may be worth, CSCS and such cards may be useful to a small degree but I would consider these to be a minimum standard which needs to be increased as time goes by. A new employee certainly needs guidance to build up their "ability" to work safely on a site, however this does not equal competence. If this individual passes a CSCS test without never having visited a site - can they be considered competent. On the other hand, can an individual who has worked for 5, 10 or more years under supervision and moved through the "ranks" be considered incompetent because they have no CSCS. If I was to employ someone -I would tend to go for the experience as opposed to the "CSCS". As a side thought - has anyone considered if the CSCS standard matches the National Occupational Standards, I dont think they do but any comments would be most welcome - maybe we could start a anti CSCS movement then everyone would listen. Finished - Arrrrgggghhh

Posted By Claire Patterson I have never worked in the construction industry although I do possess the construction certificate which I passed about five months ago, which by the way, I am aware that it does not makes me a expert! I can certainly see the merits of having a CSCS card for those people entering a construction site although a blanket ban on those not having a card, but having to be there on legitimate business surely cannot work, could they not just be escorted? I see a striking comparison between the PTS (Personal Track Safety) card which is required to enter a site on the rail infrastructure and the CSCS card. However there are provisions which can be made for a person without a PTS card (in the form of a track visitor permit) to carry out whatever work they are required to perform providing that they are supervised by a competent person, is this the same with all construction sites or does it differ from site to site, company to company?

Posted By JasonGould John M I did look at that link you posted before hand and then did the test thinking I was doing the right thing. My problem is then trying to get the card as they insisted on NVQ4 because it means I have evidence of skills gained in the construction industry. They state NEBOSH dips 1&2 are classroom courses so in effect, if they accepted that, they could get someone on site whom has just stepped out of college and never been on site. I am not ripping their beliefs but at some point they should have known and had in place systems that will then enable persons to get an appropriate card even though may have other safety quals all be it classroom based but do have working experience on sites. A formal interview or the like. Like I have said, I wrote my appeal and have sent it but have heard nothing since. (That may not be a CSCS delay as we all know the great postal system. I may have to send it again after getting a copy of my test results). So here is what I think is available to me with CSCS current setup. Option 1 Go and do a NVQ4 in construction health and safety even though I have done enough other courses Option 2 Appeal to CSCS and try to demonstrate on paper that previous work experience in different areas on site and Nebosh dips should enable me to do a safety audit of that site. Surely it should not come to appealing. There has to be an easier way but I do not know what it is :(. Again, I would not mind having the visitors card if it enabled me to do my job whilst being escorted on a site at all times (I expect and admire the escorting as there are times we need to have this in place) In fact, I do not care what colour card it is but it has to right for the person and the job they do. The current setup it just getting on my nerves (probably cos I have lost the previous appeal letter in the post and have to do it all again) So CSCS Knowledgeable people What card do I need to get on site and do safety related work though I do not have the NVQ4 but Nebosh dips as well as previous work experience and what process do I take to get it? Simple question but yet to be simply answered although on the phone I raise this all the time to CSCS operators and enquiries and they get all lost on me or stick to the NVQ rules. It is wrong

Posted By David S Burt I have to say I totally agree with Safety Dave on this matter The CSCS Card scheme is not just about passing the Touch Screen Health & Safety Test-it is also about being able to demonstrate that you are competent in the particular activity you will be undertaking. Hence the use of the NVQ scheme which is competence based and accepted throughout Industry including non construction related activities. Why should H & S people be exempt from the test? Remember the test is to ensure that ALL people have the same very basic level of knowledge. To Health & Safety people yes the questions are very easy but it must be remembered that the test has not been set for H&S specialists it has been set for all trades and labourers. I believe that CITB are correct not to accept membership at any level of IOSH as a reason for being exempt from the current requirements. IOSH is not an Institute exclusively for Construction H & S people in fact the vast majority of members do not work in Construction. It has been suggested that membership of the Construction Specialist group should allow for exemption from the current requirements. However any IOSH member can join the Construction Specialist Group –with or without any construction experience. I cannot understand what all the fuss is about –if you believe you are competent in construction Health & Safety and you DO NOT have the relevant NVQ then simply make a formal written appeal and support it with evidence to support your claimed competence. My own view is that even if someone has achieved NVQ 4 or NVQ 5 in Occupational Health & Safety they should still be required to submit supporting evidence of their Construction Competence before being issued with a Managers Card. I feel that such an approach would help to stop so many so called H&S people gives totally inadequate advice within the Construction Industry.

Posted By Robert K Lewis A lot of these comments are reapeating the work that Hazel has been attempting with CIC/CSCS over the last 6 months to no avail. The CSCS linkage to NVQs has always been through trade skills and hence why the card is linked to what it understands of the NVQ system. The problem then is that for professional occupations this does not necessarily correlate with NVQ as many come via primary, secondary and tertiary degrees. The rigid blinkered view of CSCS is thus their last refuge to hide their lack of understanding Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Safety-Dave Your process is precisely what was being attempted by Hazel to absolute no avail at present. Even then the TS test will be de rigeur. Most MCG members are actually ignoring the card for professionals and also for trades if the job demands it. Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Peter Another opening another show? :-) Bob

Posted By Robert K Lewis Shame the good parts go elsewhere!!! Bob