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Posted By Robert.
Can an employer insist on mandatory training for appointed persons first aid?
Can an employee decline to be nominated or trained as an appointed person (first aid)?
Scenario: small house (social services) where 4 adults with learning disabilities live, managed by full, part time staff and frequently supported by reliefstaff. There is one fully qualified first aider and there is always a full or part time employee in-house.
Soc serv say mandatory but does not stipulate in employment contract
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Posted By Tabs
I believe the answer is YES in both cases, and from there it depends on how - there will be consequences for refusing no doubt.
Really, this is employment law though, not H&S.
Lots of complications about taking training, and using the skills afterwards or not - and what civil obligations that would imply later ... if any.
All employment contracts can be changed with the appropriate notice I think.
You need to find an employment law forum I think.
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Robert,
I would say that an employer might be able to insist, but they would be unwise to try. Employees have a duty to co-operate, but how much use would an unwilling 1st Aider be. You might also be interested to know that CSCI has changed the meaning of 'qualified first aider', at least for England and Wales, as they have acknowledged that a HSE approved 1st Aid at Work certificate may not be the best grounding for delivering 1st Aid to people living in a care setting. there is guidance available on the CSCI website by doing a search on their 'Professional' page
John
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Posted By Sheila EJ Keogh
I would think the employer would need to assist, as the employer must ensure that first aid/appointed persons cover is available at all times that employees are at work. Remember also employees must, under HSWA, cooperate with their employer with regards to h&s. Hope this is relevant to your social housing situ. Look forward to seeing other responses. Sheila
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Folks,
What's needed is some perspective. You already have a qualified 1st Aider; this I would guess is based on the Care Standards 'requirement' that a qualified first aider should be on the roster. I have succesfully challenged this for my current and previous employer, and CSCI has now amended this requirement in the face of its obvious absurdity. If you have a qualified 1st aider, why do you need trained appointed persons?
If you have four Service Users you will have at most four staff on duty, and that's if they all need 1:1 care. From a point of view of staff provision a fully qualified first aider is huge overkill.
Appointed persons do not have to be trained. There has to be one present in every workplace, but they are not (necessarily) first aiders and don't need to be trained as such.
So your employer can insist, but what would be the point?
John
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Posted By Robert.
John K thanks for that most reasonable response.
I do agree though that an unwilling first aid appointed or other person would be about as much good as a chocolate ash tray.
Why then if employers can / do insist, do some of them offer incentive payments for retention purposes.
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
we don't necessarily have one 'fully qualified' first aider but have all the meployees do emergency first aid in simialr situation as you describe.
This training is based on support work and is part of their SVQ as well.
We do this as one first aider isn't enough to cover hols/off shift etc and emergency first aid is sufficent cover for service users.
Wouldn't force anyone to do first aid of any type unless it could be part of their job like supporitng vulnerable adults.
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Posted By Paul Duell
I haven't got the document in front of me, but the ACOP to the first aid regs has a phrase something like "The first aider selection procedure should include attitude and maturity considerations". Although the ACOP doesn't specifically say first aiders and appointed persons must be willing volunteers I'd bet a "pressed man" would be unlikely to have the right attitude to first aid.
At my last workplace, all shift managers were appointed persons (unless they were already first aiders of course), but it was clearly in their T's and C's when they took the job.
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Posted By Linda Westrupp
I think you will find that it is standard practice in most care settings that all staff should be trained in emergency aid, and if necessary, any specific emergency techniques needed by the vulnerable people they are caring for (i.e. diazepam administration), they will also, almost certainly, be expected to be trained in medication administration and in most organisations both will be mandatory. It is certainly a mandatory part of the Social Care Induction process.
I would also ask: if someone employed to be a carer is not willing to learn how to provide emergency care for their clients are they in the right job?
Linda
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Posted By J Knight
Hi Linda,
This is indeed the approach which is now being sanctioned by CSCI, and what I have always advocated. It has nothing to do with a requirement for a 'trained first aider' in the common sense of somebody who has an HSE approved four-day first aid at work certificate,
John
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Posted By Robert.
Thanks folks, for the interesting responses.
I noticed that nobody has commented on the paid appointee or first-aider as potential carrot for retention.
I mentioned that "if an idivudual declines", this was based on the assumption that the individual did not have the confidence to be able to carry out first aid if required, even as an appointed person on relief work and even if there was a financial incentive.
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Posted By martin gray1
Hi Robert
We pay £150 end of every 12 month period, if you leave before you get nothing. I find it helps keep the retraining costs down and keeps them focused, as they have to maintain the contents of the first aid cabinets.
MG
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Posted By Jon Fox 100
Good evening Robert,
An appointed person only has to have attended such training which qualifies them to provide/maintain first aid boxes and contact the emergencey services should the need arise.
The First Aid at Work ACOP (ACOP L74) states that a qualified 1st aider must have undergone a training course, approved by the HSE, in administering first aid at work and hold a valid certificate as competent to administer first aid. It further goes on to suggest that in the event of shiftwork, sufficient people must be employed to cover the shifts in accordance with the first aid risk assessment.
Naturally, there is no mention of payment for qualified 1st aiders, nor is there mention of forcing people to become appointed persons/qualified 1st aiders.
In my humble opinion, this is a matter of job descriptions/terms of reference and negotiation
Kind regards
Jon
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