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Posted By Craigo Mills
Can anyone let me have a copy of this publication? Permit to work systems INDG98 ISBN0 7176 1331 3 I can't find it on HSE website.
Thanking you in anticipation of your co-operation.
Craig
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Posted By grumpy
Craigo
Put INDG98 into google and do a UK search and then take the first link - it will take you to the dcoument
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Does anybody feel like me that the permit system is a wasted paper exercise that does no good in terms of safety. Can anybody cite a situation where a permit actually improved safety or contributed to a safe system of work.
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Posted By MP Grayson
No;
Because as a Health and Safety Guru you will never get credit for the accidents that you prevent. BECAUSE, they never exist and they never happened, BECAUSE you or your PtW that you just authorised made people just ……………stop and think.
For example so far, touch wood, we have only had one Piper Alpha incident. The big factor there being a lack of control with a PtW. So your question could be how many related incidents were avoided by adequate systems. Who knows?
Of course the system is open to abuse, such as the manager at my place who signed a PtW for Saturday and one for Sunday for a major contractor on the Friday, five hours before he flew out to Spain for his holiday. So whilst he’s got his Speedos and safety flip-flops on. I’ve got Charlie Chump welding on his own, in a confined space in the roof of a full Gymnasium right next to the gas main. NICE!
We shouldn’t knock PtW's, I love em. They stop the RUSH and make people stop and think.
Mark
xox
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Posted By Craigo Mills
The problem I have had recently with the PTW system is that people use them far too readily. We operate a level 1-3 permit, with 3 being the highest. I had people writing out level 3 permits for very low risk activities, just because they didn't understand the tasks involved.
What really grips my **** is that higher management seem to think they are exempt the ptw system and question it everytime a permit is raised.
aarrrggghhhh
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Posted By AlB
Permit to work forces people to stop and think. A good permit will have a checksheet, and that checksheet needs to be satsified before work can commence. An example would be hot working - is there a fire extinguisher at hand? No - then no work until one is made available.
A permit done properly significantly reduces the likelyhood of an incident.
A poor permit is, of course, a waste of opportunity to reduce risk, let alone a waste of paper.
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Posted By MP Grayson
Criago. I understand what you are saying.
When I started at my place two years ago I had problems. Our PtW wasn't worth didly squat, reams of paper that just didn’t float my boat. Facilities picked which hot working task required a PtW , then they just ignored them as well. The Directors were happy in their oblivion.
I finally won the war of the PtW by contacting our insurers. I asked them for examples of PtWs and guidance on when to use them. That got presented to the Finance Director with an estimate for rebuilding, assuming the insurance company would not pay up if we didn’t abide by their instructions, a brief description of an improvement notice and what it would mean for us (including hidden costs). Hey presto, problem resolved. The Hot PtW we use now is good and facilities don’t even dare pass wind without consulting the DSEAR regs, but what is the best bit is…..it’s the insurers system complete with their check list.
If in doubt get outside help. Talk to your insurers, they will refuse to pay if your hot work PtW system fails. And don’t forget that under Fire legislation could be in it up to your neck if your system fails.
Keep on banging your head on that wall. You will never knock it down but you may loosen a brick..
Mark
...............
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
And you wonder why Safety gets a bad press? Permits to work should not be in place to satisfy insurers. In fact insurers should be far removed from Safety and are a dross on society, probably the reason why children cannot ride on the seaside donkey. Its about time Safety professionals fought back from this "litigation first" mentality and i would start by regulatory reform for insurers
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Posted By rjhills
My present employer did not have in place adequate PTW when I joined.
Now they do.
We have had no "PTW related" accidents, because, once the first shock of doing something new was overcome, the fitters, engineers, roof maintenance engineers among others, found that they, and only they, were empowered to ensure that area safety was in their hands.(And this is the key).
Also, once I set up an approved contractors list, the ones who didn`t know how to spell safety and who were unable to get to grips with working safely at our various sites, were excluded from the list.
As you know PTW is an area of concern but if a determined approach is adopted, (with Board support), then working unsafely is not an attractive option.
To ensure that it is not used confetti like, we use PTW only for special working throughout the Group, as to use for every production whim is a bad mistake.
Only extensive training can ensure the system (any system for that matter) works.
Also, good communication helps.
We now have staff coming to my office offering suggestions for improvements, which is encouraged, as communication has always as you know, to be two-way.
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Posted By MP Grayson
Tony.
I object to the tone of your post. Many people who access this site work for insurance companies. Please refrain from verbally abusing them. Do you have any insurance? Do you drive a car? Do you own a house and do you have buildings insurance? Are you insured to advise on H/S?
Craigo was after a way of achieving his aim, getting his Directors to wake up and smell the coffee. I had the same type of problem and I USED the insurance company to achieve my aim. They did not use me/us. We have a good working relationship with our insurers we communicate with them, we co-operate with them, we co-ordinate some activities with them and WE CONTROL. I get a nice big fat juicy discount for having 5 stars in the BSC audit. The insurers get a nice warm feeling because I use their documentation for hot work. The Director………he gets to sleep at night. Well for now any way…………Money talks and that’s life. Rest assured just as eggs is eggs no insurance company WILL EVER pay if procedures are not followed. And I’m not even going to consider the cost of a life which is worth far more than the poxy building. One man, alone, welding in a loft with a gas main beside him is not the same as a wee rug rat on a donkey on Skeggy sea front. Or kiddies playing conkers in the play ground.
Now consider this, I also used the 4 C’s principle when dealing with Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue, the British Safety Council, the local authority, the farmer who leases our field for his grazing, I even stop and talk to the lady that rides her horse up and down our drive and across our green. They and every person who puts their foot on "my turf" has a say and they all get their say when it comes to Health, Safety and the Environment. Shall we have a pop at them………..
Rant over.
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Posted By Merv Newman
Nice ones from rj and mp.
Good rants
PTWs are for critical work where someone could die or destroy the plant.
And they are not just a paper signing exercise. Get the right procedure, protection, supervision and responsibilities in place. Then get the plant manager or production manager to sign off.
My attitude is that the person who signs-off is not authorising the work. They are agreeing to share responsibility.
And why is it that only contractors have to have a PTW ?
Merv
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Posted By Craigo Mills
My company is the principal contractor for a major CDM project, and everyone including the client works to our PTW system. Some don't like it, but on the whole it works. The problems arise when someone thinks that a task is low risk, and can't be bothered to properly risk assess it.
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
MP
Certainly didnt mean to offend but my views wont change on people who discuss safety then bring money into the argument, just as you have done with your "juicy fat" comment.
You are either a Safety Professional and therefore a realist who understands the cost implications of what we do, or you are an amateur who caves in at the mere mention of the word " litigation"
I stand by my original comment, anybody who understands safety law, or who is genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of others cannot possibly bring the litigation argument to the table. Yes it is a realistic attitude but dont ever be afraid to question it or fight back.
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Posted By Phil Grace
Insurers - where would we be without them?
I'll let the comments made by TonyABC pass. But must respond to the comment by MPGrayson who said something along the lines of "...no insurer will ever pay if procedures are not followed." This requires calorification.
Insurers are NOT allowed to avoid Employers' Liability claims if procedures are not followed. Thus we must compensate the injured employee whether or not procedures were followed. If they had been then chances are that the risk of accident had been managed/reduced but if it does occur and a claim results then we may be able to reduce the compensation paid by arguing contributory negligence.
When it comes to Public Liability the situation differs - we can avoid claims if we make it a condition of the policy that procedures are followed or Permits used.
And as other people have said Permits are of great value, they make you stop and think and Can ensure that a safe system of work is adopted. In fact, I often describe permit procedures as just that - a documented safe system of work.
And finally, please don't knock the insurers - we are a mirror to society
Phil (you guessed - employed by an insurer..!)
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