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Posted By songwriter
Hi All, i recently started in a new job in the south of England and i was warned about joining the company by various people but i took it on thinking i could change the way that the bosses think regarding h&s. how wrong was i; there is only a lip service in place and i genuinely want to succeed but i have been 'advised' not to rattle too many cages. can anyone advice on a way forward? maybe i should look to move on sooner, but really, the whole place is an accident waiting to happen and i don't want my name attached to something that i have no real control over. this h&s lark is not for the faint hearted.lol
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Posted By Bob Youel
Move on as quickly as poss whilst playing politics with those [the MD etc] concerned
Explain the position to the enforcers after you move and make records throughout
Some people are not worth working for/with irrespective & being 'competent' also means that you know when to throw in the towel
If you stay at it you will eventually hate going into work and unless you love a real fight every day it will be no good for you
Additionally an employer can get rid of you at any time [yes they can if they really want to]so you should control your own destiny
On the other hand going in hard / strong and professionally with the MD, may pay dividends and it could be all that is really needed
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Posted By The toecap
Personally good avice from Bob. I am in a similar situation and will be looking to leave soonish. When i arrived about 9 months ago i was promised management backing. I've tried to change things but now i'm told that we are making proffits, we now our customers, and we don't want to upset them. There is no kind way of saying that the CDM plans are poor, but i'm stuck at what to do. So, ill be off.
Those at the real top (board) think everything is great. They are being fed lies.
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Posted By Richard Beevers
Songwriter / The toecap,
I don't know all the details of your jobs, but...
In my first safety job I was told by an oldtimer that to really bring about cultural change in a company's H&S would take 5 years (or a death & major investigation).
A few years later, I find myself 9 months into a job with a national charity where I've not yet met the MD. I was told when I arrived that they were compliant because the previous safety adviser said they were.
The first 3 months I ran around the country meeting to managers, staff, and collecting accident books to get some data on what's historically happened, and gues what...... found that H&S is paid pure lip service and if they have an incident the lovely enforcing people would have the easiest prosecution in the world.
Second 3 months, I opened (and still open) large cans of worms, and [expletive deleted]ed off pretty much every one.
Two days ago I put a report into the board, and after much shounting, I got " Well, we'll have to do something........ He's got a point........"
Long story short:
1. Don't expect to make a bad company good quickly.
2. Give senior managers all the finacial arguments you can. Is is truly all they car about.
3. Stick your neck out if you want. there's always another job (see SHP!)
4. Never, ever delete any e-mail.
Good luck!
Al.
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Posted By Adam Worth
I'm no expert on behavioural safety but have worked on old plants with politics :)
I think any behavioural change is tricky and can be a slow and frustrating process. I think the safety basics of why H&S is important from a business perspective are very important here never forget the good old economic, legal and moral arguments.
Don’t forget that it’s good business sense not to have accidents and the trick is showing this to the managers
Also try and show people how simple and cheap it can be to comply with the law. To get buy in you need to find small, cheap things that can make a difference; OK easier said than done but just keep plodding on.
As for having no real control make you sure you document everything and report everything to your superiors in a regular report and then if it all goes Pete Tong at least you have your back covered
Health and Safety is a game of headology! You have to keep senior managers happy, as well as be liked and seen to be on the side of the workers. This is a challenge and calls on all those people skills we talked about on our CVs ?
I don’t think there’s an easy answer, there’s rarely a quick answer but I think that’s just life. Just keeping going do your best and remember a small improvement is better than none!
IOSH forum members are always here to help or hinder when you need a boost or you can use the help line!
Saying that if you’re really stuck as people said above there’s always another job and a phone call the HSE,
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Posted By Brigham
Have a wee chat with your local HSE office
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Posted By Andrew W
Excellent advice from all above. I've had the same problems in the past it all depends on your character. If it's getting you down look elsewhere before you are totally demoralised.
I moved from large multinationals to a small company. Committment is there from the very top to the majority of the troops on the ground, all that was needed was a little direction. Profits are now up, clients are knocking at the door constantly and it's a pleasure to come to work. Result!!!
Andy
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Posted By Stephen Bowdler
I would create a detailed report making clear all the issues that are of concern and if you do find alternative employment provide the MD with your report. He is ultimately responsible for H&S and you have clear identifed any failings in the system.
This way you will be seen to have carried out you duties to inform.
Good luck if you do decide to move on.
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Posted By garyh
My view:- leave and go someplace else where you will be happier.
In the meantime put your concerns in writing; write reports using cogent arguments, do not use histrionics. Use the old NEBOSH & IOSH format ie Financial / Legal / Moral reasons. Send the report to your Manager and (maybe) the CEO or other brass hat.
Don't argue and re argue; make your point professionally, record it, and move on.
I would not advise running to HSE unless the situation really is life threatening. You could get a reputation as a whistle blower and become unemployable. A bit cynical but I believe that is what can happen.
One thing to remember is that generally the H&S person is an adivsor - if the fools don't take that advice, then that is their perogative.
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Posted By songwriter
thanks to you all for your excellent replies, i am going to consider my options, i am new but keen and just need a little backing from the boss but sadly, money dictates. watch this space and thanks again
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Posted By Rob T
Maybe if you couched it in terms of BATNEEC (Best Available Techniques Not Exceeding Excessive Cost) or simply cost/benefit analysis, then he may move a bit. You will need to prepare though and quote some hard and fast figures. Be "Devils advocate" with yourself before you present to him.
If he still refuses to move, remove yourself. As already mentioned above though, be very careful about "just phoning the HSE" as you may well get a bad reputation, not just for whistleblowing but also for not being able to handle difficult situations (even though there are some that you should just stick two fingers up to and walk away from).
Please let the Forum know the outcome - I'd be very interested - good luck.
Rob
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Posted By Granville Jenkins
Well! Looks like you have ended up in the 'lions den', but take heart all is not lost!
From an experience point of view your new position offers a challenge and don't be too quick to throw in the towel (you could end up building an enviable reputation amongst H&S practitioners (and who knows what doors may open).
Going back to the lion, you will need to keep your back to the wall at all times and as we are humans you would be well advised to follow previous advice and dot the i's and cross the t's in order that if the proverbial does hit the fan you can provide evidence of the procedures that you had followed.
On a personal note and it is only my opinion, I would recommend sticking with the job for say 12 - 18 months, gain volumes of experience both good and bad, but all worthwhile. Then when an opportunity arises look to move on!!
Regards
Granville
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Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Hi,
Came onto this site approx 6 months ago with exactly the same problem.The firm I had started work with was a problem and living in the dark ages. In H&S terms it was a time bomb waiting to go off.
I am still at the same firm.
I opted to stay as walking out would have left the employees with no protection at all.I opted to stay because I am competitive and was not going to be beaten out of town.
If you stay then you have to work with long term goals and stay positive every time it goes wrong.Banging on the door gets me nothing but being crafty devious telling lies works.
You have to be a dripping tap, just keep going and one day you get a result.
Today I got the money to do scissor lift training, we needed this 6 months ago but we have at last got there. Boss thinks I am a right pain, but at least he smiles when he says it so I am slowly getting there. My plan is to get forklift training about november.
ikeep an eye on the job and if the employees are going to be doing something hazardous, to hell with the paperwork, I go to the job and baby sit it,
We could have an accident tomorrow but I am doing my best. I could call the HSE but the boss would shut down so that is a none starter.
When ever I can I bypass all of the management and go direct to the employees. We have risk assessment( simple hazard check lists ) that the lads do and they ring me if its ify.
The point is, if you stay, you will have to work long term and live with the less than perfect. Do not stress out because its a bag of spanners. Do your best and be happy with your best. Always attack from the flanks as going up front is losing bet.
After 6 months review your situation, if you leave you will have gained good experience. When I have got this firm to a reasonable position of compliance I shall find a new job but in the meantime I enjoy the daily battles and I shall out do the lot
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Posted By Alexis B
Hi all
I agree with Granville, stick with it, and Garry - respect - a true professional - that's what the job's about. It's not supposed to be a cushy number where we up sticks when it gets difficult, though unfortunately there are jobs where H&S is just a series of tick boxes. It's not about the paperwork it's about the people doing the job and Garry's obviously appreciated by the guys doing the work. Dogged determination. Brilliant.
A
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Posted By Dexter
Hi!
It's very difficult to work in that kind of environment and we are on the same ground... but i'm still trying to knock on the doors and hope that the system will be implemented..... against all barriers...
Good luck.....
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