Posted By FJ
We were "advised" that the 5th floor was significant as the ladders on fire engines couldn't reach above this (be good if a colleague in the Fire Service could comment on this)
The problem we too have with evac chairs is surely you would need to employ a "Geoff Capes" to carry someone down a long distance. As the you can no longer assume that the Fire Service will take everyone out and so you have to plan how to get EVERYONE out this is much more than a technicality.
Although the HSW Act pulls rank over the DDA try persuading a Senior Manager that they are right to face the political fallout of restricting those with mobility problems who cannot safely be removed from say the 25th floor from working there!

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Take great care when using these evac chairs. The organisation I work for has decided not to use them, we occupy the third to seventh floor of a building in London and are very close to the fire station. Luckily we do not currently employ many disabled people but some may occassionally visit us. We have a fireman's lift which is used by the other tennents of the building and each floor has a refuge area with adequate fire protection. It is my view that the problems created by the use of evac chairs outweigh the risk from fire when you take account of the effective use of fire precautions, regular fire drills are conducted and everyone understands thier role in evacuating the building and we also have a mentor sustem for visitors and others who may have mobility difficulties. Evac chairs are risky in thier own way with manual handling and of course additional risk to the person needed to operate them. My view is get rid of them and use a simpler process and get the understanding from the fire authority.

Posted By Zyggy Turek

I too have grave misgivings about using these hugely overpriced pieces of equipment that usually gather dust & cause more problems than they solve.

Yes, the latest legislation puts the onus on the occupier to safely evacuate a building, but the Brigades are still Fire & Rescue services!

When I discussed this with our FPO's, given that we have refuge areas in our tallest building, & asked the pointed question, would you refuse to effect an evacuation in case of a fire, the answer was an emphatic "no".

Zyggy.

Posted By Crim
My daughter is 6 years old and physically disabled. She is strong willed and will not sit in an evacuation chair and would have to be man handled into one if it was ever necessary. She would probably then struggle due to being scared which would lead to the carry down becoming dangerous.

With the recent hotel fire in Cornwall in mind you really need to consider your location as to whether or not fire brigade ladders should be included in the escape plan?

Posted By Zyggy Turek
Shaun,

Thanks for your comments, I was aware that we have always had a duty to consider the safe evacuation of disabled persons, but as you point out, the RRO is now more explicit.

As a fire safety professional you obviously have your views, but surely to consider a prosecution should be the last resort?

The FPO's I have spoken to are aware of our requirements, but thankfully are sympathetic to the issues they bring.

Together with the DDA & the basic need to consider the feelings of all our occupants in such situations, solutions can sometimes be complex & the use of evacuation chairs is not always the answer.

Zyggy.

Posted By shaun mckeever
Zyggy

Prosecution would normally be the last resort but I am referring to if there were a fire, peoples lives were put at risk because of inadequate procedures and firefighters were committed to carry out rescues that they should not have had to do.

Yes in these circumstances prosecution would be an option.

Posted By Sally
Interestingly new guidance in scotland makes it very clear that the disabled person need not take part in regular drills and in fact suggest these should be carried out with members of the evacuation team. It also gives lots of information on other methods of evacuating disabled people and is a very helpful and practical document.

It is available at infoscotland.gov.uk/fire

Posted By Graham Bullough
When I looked into arrangements for evacuating mobility impaired people from my employer's main multi-storey building some years ago, I sampled what it was like to be a passenger in an evac chair and also the operator of such a device. The scariest part, certainly for the passenger, is when the chair is brought to the top edge of a flight of stairs and tilted forwards so that it can start to descend the flight.

For the reasons already raised by previous responders, my conclusion was that the devices, which my employer already had, should be used as a last resort.

Also, though fire brigades now have "fire and rescue service" in their official titles, the message from fire officers in my area seems to be that their people who attend known or suspected fires are first and foremost "firefighters", and that employers and occupiers have the prime responsibility for arrangements to evacuate people.

Incidentally, for the multi-storey building I mentioned, we have muster points on each floor where mobility impaired people should initially congregate (and each be accompanied by an employee) if the fire alarm sounds. Each point has a phone linked to my employer's control centre. If there is no emergency (e.g. practice being held or alarm is inadvertently set off) the control centre can soon advise anyone at a muster point of this and that there is no need to evacuate.

If there is a real emergency, the control centre knows who is at which locations. This enables arrangements to be made to evacuate them away from the fire location/s and out of the building. This is helped by the fact that the building effectively comprises a number of compartments all separated from each other by horizontal and vertical fire segregation features. However, for some reason, most people do not realise this and wrongly imagine, perhaps from what they've seen in cinema films which are intended to be sensational, that any fire which occurs would immediately engulf the entire building.

Posted By jackw.
Hi, Can't believe I am the only one who thinks EVAC chairs are a useful bit of kit. I have used and been in one. My experience.. so long as the people using them are properly trained, undertake in house practice regularly and of course use the correct technique/method when using them, that they are safe and easy to use. The primary problem I have encountered is staff not having the confidence to "push" them out at the start of coming down stairs. This can be overcome by training and practice. Also consider, as we have too, getting disabled staff located above ground floor out of the building during a power cut. Also If my assumption is correct how do the fire service get disabled persons out of a burning building..maybe 10 mins after local staff could have done so using the evac chair. Are we saying fire officers should physically lift the person/put the person over their shoulder? this could cause much more damage to a disabled person (e.g. suffering from brittle bone disorder etc.) than using an EVAC chair. As for staff would can't get them selves into a chair.. those with no ability to weight bare, there are numerous aids that can be used. Also as has been said legislation makes owners/occupiers of properties responsible for getting people out not the fire service, they consider themselves as resuers of last resort. This has certainly been the case in my area and this has been emphasised by the fire service on a number of occasions. i agree that they are a bit pricey, but speaking as a ROLLS ROYCE trained engineer, they are and excellent, technically well designed, manufactured, safe and easy to use

Cheers

Posted By Steve Clark
I have recently been looking at the evacuation of disabled persons; my problem with evacuation chairs is the SWL is limited. The particular person i need to cater for exceeds the 150kg SWL of the best Evac chair I can find - any suggestions?

Steve

Posted By jackw.
Pluto there are a number of such devices: stairmatics, climbmatic etc. We have used and still use these for disabled children in some of our mainstream schools. They are very expensive but have the primary advantage of being able to climb stairs thus the person can go up as well as down. However on a cost basis for emergency evacuation it's hard to justify the cost viz an evac chair which does the job adequately. As has been said the key is training in the use of them and continued regular practice = staff confidence in using them, this is paramount. As i said in my first reply I have been in one going down stairs and used one to evacuate staff. I reiterate no problems including the weight/size match of person in the chair viz person taking them down stairs.

Cheers.