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Posted By Allyson
I have two employees off sick, both on 2 weeks sick note signed by doctors. One feels able to come into the office in the mornings then leaves at lunch time when he says his 'back pain' bothers him. The other says she would try and come back for a few hours a day (fine by us) but that she can't because she has to be signed back to work by the doctor. Can someone answer 1) Is there any legal implication in an employee coming to work even when signed off sick? 2) Do employees who have been signed off need to be signed back on by GP if they decide to return before sick note period expires? Insurance was mentioned by employee No.2.
Any replies very welcome.
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Posted By Robert Tailby
On the comment about insurance, I would recommend that you seek a view from your Employer's Liability insurer or your broker. They will probably say they don't want anyone at work with a "live" sick note.
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Posted By Lee Mac
You mention employee number two said she would "try" to come back- have either of these individuals been approached by the employer re: coming back to work?
Lee
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Posted By Clare Gabriel
Here is my response to a previous but similar thread query:
I have fortuitously just been on a seminar from the EEF on managing sickness absence and this very matter was raised. Dr Sayeed Khan the EEFs chief medical officer was absolutely firm on this matter.
The MED3 is a document issued by the GP, agreed - however the GP is not in the picture of the employees work. Therefore if your Occupational Health doctor (not nurse and that is also very clear)feels the employee is fit to come back to work - even with restrictions then they will advise you so. There is no 'fit' note. It was reiterated that OH nurses are not permitted to advise employees back to work - it does have to come from OH doctor.
Equally and this is very interesting - if the OH Doc thinks the employee is fit for work and the employee refuses then if it is in your contract you can stop sick pay.
If you have any further queries can I suggest you phone the EEF, or purchase their book on sickness absence as it is really helpful
So basically I would contact your Occ Health provider - if you do not have one give me an email and I will give the name of an excellent company we use - Ex HSE doctor - -pulls no punches - either way - straight down the line with employees and managers
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Hi everyone, sorry to be late with this responce but workload has prevented me responding.
Just to get one thing clear the sick note is not an instruction not to work. A Doctors sicknote is telling someone the person concerned is deemed unffit for normal work. It is not a legal document and is for advise only. It is at the discretion of the person concerned if he goes to work or not. The sick note simply states the person concerned should refrain from work because of the illnes or injury he/she has. The sick note is only a document for advising the person concerned that he/she should refrain from work and is used by the employer to veryify that advise has come form a competent person (a Doctor).
The bottom line is it up to the individual concerned if he wants to foolow the Doctors advise, it is not an instruction. If the sick note was an instruction the doctor may find himself facing action to recover costs if the illness was not true if you get my meaning. Therefore if someine has been signed off as sick by a Doctor it is up to the individual concerned if he works or not. Another side to this is what position is the employer in if he knows soemone has been signed off sick by a Doctor and allows the person concerned to undertake work??
The long and short of it is the person concerned should think carefully about working or not and take close notice of what the Doctor advises before making a decisin to work.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
I've said this before:
The OH doctor is [usually] not aware of the persons medical history. The doctor has information on the doctors note as to why the patient is unfit for work. It may well be that the REASON given on the sicknote is not the correct diagnosis and it is likely that the person, in some cases, may not wish the employer to know the correct reason for absence. Given the almost complete lack of confidentiality with respect to employees personal information, is it surprising ?
Risks 328.
'Work while you're sick' is hurting firms.
Pressure to stagger into work when sick is hurting workers and damaging productivity, commitment levels and motivation, according to research from the Chartered Management Institute (CMI). Its 'Quality of Working Life' report reveals that 17 per cent of managers believe their health is deteriorating and more than four in 10 (42 per cent) claim illness rates in their organisation have gone up over the last 12 months. But the study of 1,511 managers found 1 in 3 believe a culture of not taking time off work for sickness exists in their organisation. Only 53 per cent of employees feel they would be treated sympathetically if they were ill. The report reveals half (48 per cent) of those reporting symptoms relating to stomach bugs in the past year did not take sick leave and only 9 per cent suffering from stress took time off from work, despite 1 in 3 citing stress symptoms. Two-thirds of respondents (67 per cent) said their productivity was reduced by ill health. CMI corporate affairs director Jo Causon said: 'While many employers bemoan the cost of absence to their organisations, they fail to see the damage done by creating a culture where illness is seen as a weakness. The risk of mistakes or spreading sickness surely outweighs the short-term benefits of someone turning up for work when not fully fit.'
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Hi John,
You are right to think most employers would not want anyone to report for work when a Doctor has said they are not well enough but unfortunately there are some employers who don't care that much and often put unfair pressure on some to return to work. I am not saying the individual can return to work dispite the Doctors advise but there are some who would wish to do so anyway. Personnally, I would take note of my Doctors advise before returning to work but the fact remains the Doctors note simply advises the person to refrain from work it does not say he can't return to work. It is down to the individual and possibly the employer, as some empolyers would not ask anyone to return to work when sick. But I am lucky I work for a good boss.
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Posted By John Murgatroyd
Quite right.
Personally, I would pay no attention to an OH doctor. I also would tell them nothing, since that is equivalent to broadcasting it aloud. I trust MY doctor to know best about ME, and not some part-time-paid-up hack....the same type that ask a guy without legs to walk upstairs to check their disability.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Oh John, such a harsh opinion of OH Doctors, you must have had some bad experience with one at some time, mind bit done. Remember most OH Doctors have a certain remit to work to, but will always work to his or hers professional competence and duty. Occ Health is a facet of medicine much miss understood. Please remember it is the role of any occ health octor to work for continued employment and the best of health options so don't look at the simply as a management tool. I have know occ health Doctors insist someone is kept on sick leave when a MD has signed them back as fit for work.
The qeuestion here is who has the full sign off position here, its is the Doctor in an advisory role but the decision to take sick leave always rests with the individual except in certain cases such as mental problems where a Doctor can section someone as necessary (thankfully very rare)
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Posted By Niomi
Hello I'm wondering if anyone can help me or just tell me whether I'm in the right or not, maybe just give a little advice.
My partner works for subway in Warrington. Yesterday he was ill with sickness and diarrhea, he called in sick and the assistant manager answered the phone and was told. Aout half an hour later we get a call of the manager asking whats going on. my partner told him that he was ill with sickness and diarrhea and could not be expected to work with food. Themanager said very unprofessionally that he doesn't care he takes to much time off and he's sick off it (my partner took 2 weeks off work because he sliped and riped half of his toe nail off it got infected and was a mess. this is the only time he has had of work). The manager then said that if he doesn't get into work by an hour later to not come back because he is sacked and hung up. About 20 minutes later we get another phone call of the manager again saying he has a disaplinary the next day at 4. i personally dont think he is being fair. Can anyone offer me any advice about where he stands.
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Posted By MT Okay, firstly it is correct that he cannot work with food if he is presenting symptoms of a gastric illness. Many companies will not allow persons to work with food until they have been clear of symptoms for at least 48 hours, some ask for a clear stool sample. The employer will have a policy on this which should be available to the employees. For further employment advice, try this website: http://www.direct.gov.uk...ment/Employees/index.htmSomeone else may post further advice on the employment law aspect - I'm afraid I can't help with that.
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Posted By Robert Tailby
Difficult to advise you on the employment law aspects without knowing a lot more - I suggest you contact your local Citizen's advice bureau to begin with - they should be able to help. The number will be in your phone book.
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Posted By Glyn Atkinson
I think that I would ask the employer to attend MY house for this disciplinary meeting as I would probably struggle to recover well enough to go into work. Hopefully they would catch the bug and see how it feels for themselves when ill.
This manager is not from the real world, and would stand in line for a prosecution if bringing this employee back into work resulted in some form of public viral infection from the food stuffs involved.
Our insurers ask us to carefully consider before requesting anyone to attend work when ill or incapacitated, as they are immediately under our duty of care while on site.
This is especially true for those with any hand cast from breakages or stress fractures, and to give careful consideration to anyone who wants to work with a sick note date still outstanding, but on light duties only.
We all want to have fit workers back in asap, but in this case, it's seems very harsh if all of the presented facts are true.
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Posted By Darren_Durnall
Hi All,
I have a Query i have a med3 form from the hospital after a week i was told that my knee was unable to be repaired as the joint is to badly worn and needs a replacement but there unwilling to do this at the moment as i am only 40 and with my active lifestyle the joint would be worn out by time i am 50 - 55
so i returned to work today 01/12/08 and was sent home by my employer he stated it was unsafe for me to be at work and he didn't want to risk any further injury to my knee the med3 runs out on the 4th Dec can he do this ?
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Posted By Scotty
Darren,
He probably can do this, as you are currently medically signed off as being unfit to work. Your employer seems to be supportive and looking out for your health, in not wanting you to risk another injury.
However, you can request another Med3 form which states that you are well enough to return to normal duties, which your GP will provide.
Cheers.
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Posted By A Campbell
An interesting angle is where the employer stands with regards to duty of care if an employee decides to return to work after recieving a sick note from his/her GP advising against it?
In addition would the HSE/EHO be looking for a risk assessment by the employer if an incident occurred during this period?
Of course there is the issue of insurance and liability during such instances also!
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Posted By SteveD-M
BEWARE!!
My very first outing into H&S was when the insurers as me to sign of £250k claim as we had brought someone in who had an achillese tendon issue and the injury as a result of hobbling around for two weeks at work never repaired properly.
The devil as always is in the detail but suffice to say the practice of bringing employees in whilst on sick had to be based on a solid risk assessment and making reasonable temporary adjustments in the workplace.
In my opinion that individual would need a risk assessment for the task they carry out...which also impacts on your risk risk assessment and personal evacuation plans etc...
All this and only Monday...By the way I think Mr Burns should be our hero...!!
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Posted By Darren_Durnall
Hi All,
While i do understand the risk of bringing a injured employee in some cases i don't think that my case is so ... i have a unique job i work for a company that is family owned i do not have a specific job i multi task .. sales exec.. CNC saw operator truck driver goods in ect ect
with Christmas closing in rapidly all i wanted to do is earn a little cash I have worked all my life i have never taken the easy option (Benefits) although some people would take advantage of the situation i can not sit at home for a indefinitely period just waiting to find out what cards life will deal me
Some times i wonder if this world is more concerned with the sue factor than with the responsibility of letting the workers work !
***** Just my opinion ********
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Posted By Melanie Fellows
But unfortunately that's the way of the world now.
Your doctors note advises you to refrain from work for x days, weeks, months, whatever.
If your employer just accepts your word that you are OK - with no further checks/ assessments/ etc., then your employer is leaving himself wide open to a claim if you hurt yourself.
It stinks, but it's true.
If you are so keen to return to work, why not go back to your doctor for a chat, and if he agrees, get him to sign you back in.
I have had various cases where we have assessed the individual case, and allowed people to return to work - but it depends on the case etc. We also checked that we were OK to do so with our insurers (they were very helpful).
Mel
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Posted By Melanie Fellows
Just to clarify - I mean it stinks about the claim culture in the world now, but I wholeheartedly support any valid claim - I just get fired up about the imaginary/ over-egged ones.
Mel
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Posted By A Campbell
Mel,
I agree with you whole heartedly... although if the HSE decided to rely on an individual's decision to work... then they wouldn't need to look at employers for risk assessments etc or the management decision making processes as is the norm today. Especially in light of corperate manslaughter etc likely coming to the forefront of prosecutions in the next year or so?
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Posted By Darren_Durnall
Firstly i would like to thank you all for the input and comments made
But i have some good news after taking on board what you have said i decided to plead my case with my Employer
Well the news is i am back to work tomorrow !!! yay
okay but i did agree that if i was injured further i wouldn't/cannot make any claim for liability from the company risky i know but so be it
i CANNOT just sit at home and feel sorry for myself i have my self esteem back
a heart felt thank-you again for your help and input
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Posted By Martin Mulholland
News Item
Posted Tue, 25 Nov 2008
Doctor's sick notes should be scrapped in a bid to cut down the £100 billion cost of workers' ill-health, the Government has said.
Ministers said that, under plans to "significantly reduce" ill-health at work, doctors will instead issue "fit notes" which will specify what workers can still do.
This new system will mean that changes can be made to workers' duties to enable them to get back to work.
James Purnell, work and pensions secretary, said: "Everyone has the right to work and we want to design a fair system which supports people so they can work when they are able."
The traditional system of doctors giving workers a sick note has been in place since the NHS was created in 1948 and has remained unchanged.
Trials are being held to replace the paper sick notes with electronic fit notes by 2010.
Health secretary Alan Johnson said: "Sick leave costs an estimated £100 billion per year, but helping people stay in work does not just have an economic imperative, it has a moral and social one too."
Copyright © Press Association 2008
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Posted By Pete Longworth
I have just posted a thread on the member's forum on this very matter.
Tha article says that the GP will not be expected to "police" the new system, but surely it will be the GP who will be expected to issue the said "fit" note if it is to replace the "sick" note, otherwise what role will the GP play in the whole system?
If the GP is expected to issue the "fit" note, on what basis will he / she make the assessment? Will GP's visit workplaces to assess whether their patient can manage a particular job, or will the assessment be a complete generalisation ie Mr X can do light duties, no lifting , no pushing, office based duties only etc. What use would that be?
In addition would RIDDOR need to be amended in light of the current situation where an accident is reportable even if the IP remains at work on alternative duties?
I notice that IOSH welcomes this initiative (according to the article) so maybe they have more information to impart.
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