Posted By AHS
Actually I am not sure that CHAS audits its members enough.

I was used to get a Company through the scheme and once accredited they said thx we will take it from here - no competent person anymore.

Posted By Michael Sweeney
I know what you mean about companies thinking that now they have it they're alright. Mind you, in my experience they generally come a cropper when next due!

I have also heard about a member of IOSH (allegedly chartered) who at a Local Government contractor seminar recently offered to get any company through for £300! I would have thought that was impossible if done properly and if it was just the provision of "evidence" this is the equivalent of sitting a driving test for someone else. Gets the licence but puts a danger on the road.

Posted By Steve99Jones
I agree with the points above, I have submitted many CHAS applications in conjunction with my clients and not once has the assessor contacted me to establish whether or not I am their competent person.

In one instance the application was referred with the main referral reason being because my client did not have access to competent Health & Safety advice. The assessor also put the referral letter on their own H&S Consultancy’s headed paper without the CHAS logo again stating that my client may like to seek competent advice, I can’t help but think that they were advertising their own services! My CV was attached to the questionnaire and the details of my competence were clearly indicated in an organised and methodical way within the CHAS Application form – There was no question of my competence and when this was highlighted to the assessor, they became very defensive, as a CMIOSH, Chartered Civil Engineer with extensive construction and safety experience they really had no grounds for any such comments. All I can conclude is that they did not read the application form and issued a standard referral letter. I have also seen virtually identical referrals letter coming from the same assessor with just the name and address of the contractor changed; it is like they have already pre-determined what aspects the contractor will be referred on.

I agree that the CHAS Scheme is excellent in its concept. However, I believe that the assessors should be more regulated then they currently are. There is far too much scope for individual preferences and interpretation by the assessors, rather than this is the CHAS standard, is it met yes or no.

I appreciate since the CDM 2007 Regs there has been more emphasis on the requirements of CHAS and certainly more demand to pass assessments, and from experience it seems that the assessors are being stricter, making sure that all of the I are dotted and t’s crossed which is not necessarily a bad thing. However, I have had similar experiences of the accident record –I guess so the assessor can tick all boxes.

If CHAS is to maintain its credibility and status, I think it needs to very carefully ensure that all of the assessors act in a professional and consistent way, if the fee is a problem, then again CHAS should perhaps re-consider what assessors are paid if they want a professional service from their assessors.

Posted By bob safe
Sorry to go on, but why would a CHAS Asessor NEED to contact you? Applicants are told that the Assessor MAY contact the competent person. If I have an enquiry, I speak with the contractor directly and not their consultants. It's very easy to be critical of a CHAS Assessor but look at it this way, if (god forbid) there were an accident on one of your client's sites, or premises and the HSE were investigating, how far down the list does the consultant come on the inspector's list of people to talk to, seeing as the consultant does not physically manage health and safety.

On the letters, there are standard template letters used by almost all assessors, it may not be unusual to come across the same problems twice so why reinvent the wheel, you are still covering the points.

Posted By bob safe
I'm with Steve on that. He said what I meant, only my letter is in the house and my memory is shocking.

Posted By Steve99Jones
Steve J B/Bob

Yes I understand that, but what about all the contractors who are submitting the CV's and details of Safety Advisors that they do not employ or even use, as Ian has mentioned above. Surely the CHAS assessor has a duty to verify this especially if a third party is potentially being implicated. All it would take is a 30 second phone call or email.

My other concern is where the CHAS assessors have not even read the information contained on the application form and then send off a standard referral letter without even tweaking it.

As for is it a consultants view, well yes it is, but lets also remember that most CHAS assessors are also independent consultants that are paid a fee to carry out the assessments, and any re-assessments. Just because they are a CHAS Assessor, it does not necessarily mean that they are any more important or competent.

As previously stated, I have nothing against the CHAS Scheme, I do think it is a worthy scheme, but as with any such scheme, sometimes those involved need to stand back and look at the wider picture, in order to improve and build upon what has already been established.

What I would not like to see is for CHAS to be viewed in the same way as many view the CSCS scheme.

Posted By John Murphy
Dear Collegaues. Reluctantly I feel I should respond on behalf of CHAS and of course our 90 or so assesors - all of which are IOSH members at one level or another and therfore your peers.

Re Peter Longworth. Peter was invoiced for the £75 attendance fee because, for whatever reason, he was shown as having attended the training on the 8th August. He was in fact a no show, that is to say did not inform us he was not going to attend. We are entitled to charge a no show fee as it is the terms of the booking but we did, in this case refund it. The issue of the certificate of attendance was as a result of the administrative error. Let us be very clear though that he would not have been able to act as an assessor as he suggested. He had not registered with us. Prospective assessors have to provide evidence of qualifications, two references and attend the training, only then are they placed on our list and sent assessments.

Re Michael Sweeney. I cannot comment on the assessment he refers to as I do not know the name of the contractor assessed and therefore refer to the assessment details which are kept on record for six years. It would be helpful if the assessor perhaps had the same opportunity to repudiate what are in fact unsubstantiated allegations. I can say that Michael should know that CHAS is nothing like CSCS and should not be judged being in any way similar. Michael states “someone else” told him “I don’t believe there have been no accidents”. I delivered CHAS training today and I said th delegates when talking about this part of the assessment that in some cases, perhaps a small office environment for example, that there were no accidents or near misses reported that we might consider asking the business to confirm they have considered under reporting as a possibility. If they have then we would believe them. On the other hand a demolition company employing fifty people who reports no accidents or near misses over three years we would not believe unless they have the perfect safety management system. As individuals we held discussion about this and various other scenarios. If we are wrong in this approach then I will be glad to listen to what we have got wrong, His comment about the reassessment fee are also uninformed and incorrect.

Re AHS.
No one has report this to me. No CHAS assessor would or ever has to my knowledge ever suggest we take over acting for a company as their competent advice at any point or for any reason. If AHS or anyone else for that matter can provide evidence of such an act they should present it to CHAS or IOSH immediately as it poses a question of misconduct. Certainly were CHAS to be informed we would investigate it rigorously.

I found this thread disappointing and in some cases uninformed. It also borders on unprofessional. AUG (Acceptable Use Guidelines) # 4 states “You must not use the forums to make complaints against any individual or organisation.” I have not asked for this thread to be pulled becaause as a scheme we are transparent in everything we do – we have nothing to hide and if you want the facts we will give them to you. If you want to criticise our assesors then fine but ensure they have the right to reply.


Regards

John

Posted By Michael Sweeney
John

This thread was intended to start a discussion about the perceived difficulty of our clients achieving CHAS compared with a year or two ago. As stated, substantially the same evidence was submitted and declared non-compliant on 26 points 12 months later. Surely this demonstrates an inconsistency which needs to be discussed.

Mike

Posted By Robert Paterson
If consultants or any other people are experiencing difficulty with the Assessment then surely they should be contacting the CHAS Administrators or Scheme Manager to address whatever problems they might have. I don't think it was very professional to air any views publicly before looking for the answers at the source.

What people need to realise is that one of the aims of the scheme is to ensure that companies are complying with Health and Safety legislation as far as the documentation is concerned.

I for one am very happy to be a part of the assessing team and will at all times try to answer any queries that may come from either consultants or member companies and I can assure everyone that I am not in it for the money and I believe that is the case for all assessors.

Regards
Robert Paterson CMIOSH, AIEMA

Posted By Robert Paterson
Steve

The applicants are not only given the name of the assessor but also the address and email of the assessor. Once I have been appointed to an assessment I make email contact with the applicant to establish a link at the very outset and it gives them an opportunity to make contact with me direct. I also have made telephone contact with some of the applicants.

Your point about making contact with the admin people who are not H&S Professionals is strictly not true. I know that the Team Manager has H&S qualifications that many of the consultants in the field also have and the Scheme manager has a number of years experience in Health and Safety.

So I repeat if consultants or applicants have a problem then let them contact the scheme who will address any problems and not air them in public. I would also stress that if any applicant is having a problem meeting the criteria then contact either the appointed assessor or the CHAS team direct for assistance before submitting the application. I would also say that the standard of application over the years has improved and long may it continue to improved. Together we as professionals should be supporting the scheme and encouraging the work behind the scheme which is making a difference to all sectors of industry

Regards
Robert