Posted By AF
Was watching GMTV this morning and was interested to note that a fellow Scot, Rose Gentle claimed justice for her hero son, Gordon (killed by a roadside bomb in Basra 2004), as a coroner ruled he died after a "chaotic" army blunder.

It was alleged that he wouldn't have died if a bomb jamming kit known as Element B had been fitted to his Land Rover.

Apparently no one told the Royal Highland Fusiliers that the gadget was available for collection. Ironically this equipment was sitting in a storage container 900 metres away.

Surely this amounts to negligence somewhere.

Wonder if the forthcoming Corporate Manslaughter legislation would have applied had it yet been in place.

Who would be held liable, the Royal Highland Fusilier Regiment? The MOD? or the Government?

Interesting to see others views!

Posted By AF
Ray

If this is the case, then it sounds to me the MOD/Government are covering their backs over any negligence related issues.

Surely a case of one rule for them and another for the rest of us.

Lets remember those who paid the ultimate sacrifice, to make the world a better place to live

Lest we forget!

Posted By AHS
Why should the Police and Armed Forces not have the correct safety equipment and training. I think the Government have a responsibility towards these brave individuals.

Posted By Ian_P
Yes the armed forces deserve proper training.

Yes they deserve the correct equipment.

However, there's a very good reason why they cannot and should not come under 'normal' health and safety laws - Section 2.1 of the HASAWA.

By the very nature of the job the employer (MoD) cannot, so far as is reasonably practicable, ensure the safety of it's employees.

Yes, people should be held accountable when there is negligence on the part of the MoD, but sensibility says this should not be through health and safety laws but through internal procedures and (dare I say it) civil law.

On a lighter note, this e-mail has just been doing the rounds. Light hearted Friday fun, but also reinforces the point that the H&S line has to be drawn at the armed forces...

Nelson: "Order the signal, Hardy."

Hardy: "Aye, aye sir."

Nelson: "Hold on, that's not what I dictated to Flags. What's the meaning of this?"

Hardy: "Sorry sir?"

Nelson (reading aloud): "' England expects every person to do his or her duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability.' - What gobbledegook is this?"

Hardy: "Admiralty policy, I'm afraid, sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had the devil's own job getting ' England ' past the censors, lest it be considered racist."

Nelson: "Gadzooks, Hardy. Hand me my pipe and tobacco."

Hardy: "Sorry sir. All naval vessels have now been designated smoke-free working environments."

Nelson: "In that case, break open the rum ration. Let us splice the mainbrace to steel the men before battle."

Hardy: "The rum ration has been abolished, Admiral. Its part of the Government's policy on binge drinking."

Nelson: "Good heavens, Hardy. I suppose we'd better get on with it........... full speed ahead."

Hardy: "I think you'll find that there's a 4 knot speed limit in this stretch of water."

Nelson: "Damn it man! We are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must advance with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest please."

Hardy: "That won't be possible, sir."

Nelson: "What?"

Hardy: "Health and Safety have closed the crow's nest, sir. No harness, and they said that rope ladders don't meet regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected."

Nelson: "Then get me the ship's carpenter without delay, Hardy."

Hardy: "He's busy knocking up a wheelchair access to the fo'c'sle Admiral."

Nelson: "Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd."

Hardy: "Health and safety again, sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled."

Nelson: "Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of admiral by playing the disability card."

Hardy: "Actually, sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency."

Nelson: "Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons."

Hardy: "A couple of problems there too, sir. Health and safety won't let the crew up the rigging without hard hats. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?"

Nelson: "I've never heard such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy."

Hardy: "The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral."

Nelson: "What? This is mutiny!"

Hardy: "It's not that, sir. It's just that they're afraid of being charged with murder if they actually kill anyone. There's a couple of legal-aidlawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks."

Nelson: "Then how are we to sink the Frenchies and the Spanish?"

Hardy: "Actually, sir, we're not."

Nelson: "We're not?"

Hardy: "No, sir. The French and the Spanish are our European partners now.According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a claim for compensation."

Nelson: "But you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."

Hardy: "I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-ordinator hear you saying that sir. You'll be up on disciplinary report."

Nelson: "You must consider every man an enemy, who speaks ill of your King."

Hardy: "Not any more, sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age.Now put on your Kevlar vest; it's the rules. It could save your life"

Nelson: "Don't tell me - health and safety. Whatever happened to rum,sodomy and the lash?"

Hardy: As I explained, sir, rum is off the menu! And there's a ban on corporal punishment."

Nelson: "What about sodomy?"

Hardy: "I believe that is now legal, sir."

Nelson: "In that case............................... kiss me, Hardy."

Posted By GARRY WIZZ
Some good friday humour.

Now then, NO MILATARY PLANS SURVIVES FIRST CONTACT WITH THE ENEMY .

Historical fact,

Every war ever fought has been a chaotic affair that is littered with errors and bad judgement at all levels.

The winner is the person who makes the least mistakes and learns how adapt the quickest.

The speed and process of learning is dictated by the body count.

If one reads a few history books on war, or read the lot, it is fact that H&S cannot be factored into a winning army.

I do think some of the top brass have forgotten some of the basic principles involved in warfare.

If we have to prosecute for H&S then you would have to prosecute the government. They are the corporate head and having disbanded the regiments, reduced the armed forces budget to pennies they have like all governments before them sent the forces out to fight a war ill equipped to do the job.

Garry

Posted By AHS
We are not talking about manual handling/COSHH assessments but lack of body armour and bullets in some cases.

Posted By AF
I am not disagreeing that H&S has no place in the battlefield at all.

However, providing the appropriate hazards have been addressed, and the appropriate controls implemented, then the risks of being killed or severely injured are reduced significantly.

Battles/missions are always carefully assessed, planned before they happen.

It is a sad fact of life, there will always be casualties in the event of war.

If the necessary equipment was supplied, he would be alive today.

I also recall other examples where the MOD has failed to supply kevlar body suits, helmets etc, etc. These personnel also lost their lives.

If I didn't supply my personnel with the equipment or PPE necessary to do there job in the safest manner possible, I would be held liable, along with my employer.

I really dont see much difference......!

Posted By David McGuire
Iam not so sure if he did have the jamming equipment then the bomb would not have exploded and he would be alive today!!!

I have had experiance of the jamming equipment the army use in Northern Ireland and I can recall an incident when the said jamming equipment was supplied and fitted to the vechile and was working correctly, and the IED still exploded killing and injurying personnel! and yes the IED was triggered by electornic means and not by command cable.

Soliders should receive the kit that is required I am not disputing that Iam just saying has any one asked why the equipment was not issued ? I know it was in Iraq at the time but did operational situation on the ground make it imposiable/ difficult to get the kit to the front line troops at that time ??