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#1 Posted : 08 November 2007 22:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Stapleton
I've been trying to look in to this one but it's like a Chinese puzzle - the more you struggle with it, the harder it becomes!

Basically, I understand that CDM 07 applies to all projects but the Client & Coordinator parts are not applicable on domestic projects as well as non notifiable. If the project is non notifiable to the HSE, I believe the Local Authority is obliged to be the enforcing authority but when I enquired, they only deal with projects of an entirely internal nature.

Does anyone know what happens with domestic/non-notifiable projects that include external work e.g. pretty much all work?

Thanks in advance
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#2 Posted : 08 November 2007 23:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Hunter
This should answer:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/23-15.htm
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#3 Posted : 09 November 2007 00:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Stapleton
Thanks Ron

I have read a similar script before and it's all a bit 'Charlie Brown', it seems a bit of a shame that it's not explained better in the regs or the ACOP considering the types of organisations undertaking small or domestic work.
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#4 Posted : 09 November 2007 09:20:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The HSE essentially enforce all construction work notifiable and non-notiofiable. The latter are generally "found" i n the course of their routine duties.

Bob
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#5 Posted : 09 November 2007 09:30:00(UTC)
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Posted By ddraigice
HSE enforce most construction except for:

Non-notifiable construction work which is entirely internal to the building and which is not separated off from the normal operations of the premises where the LA is the enforcing authority for that class of premises.

and

Where the only work carried out in a segregated area of LA- enforced premises is the removal or maintenance of insulation on heating or water systems.

The premises mentioned being offices, shops and warehouses etc.

BUT all segregated internal work and external work, including minor works such as painting an external door for example, on the external fabric of any building (even LA enforced) is HSE. All this is laid down in appendix 2 of the Enforcing Regs.

Domestic houses will always fall to HSE.
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#6 Posted : 09 November 2007 11:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Youel

Just a thought / one to think about

A private householder working on their own extension, on their own property with no builders involved was recently fined etc under construction law!

Who enforced I do not know - However somebody did as the case went to court

Its very interesting in that there the person was 'not at work'
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#7 Posted : 09 November 2007 12:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Steve99Jones
Bob

Very interesting, do you have any more details on this case?

Steve
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#8 Posted : 09 November 2007 12:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By CFT
Bob

Could this possibly have been a case where the actions of said house holder placed others unnecessarily at risk? And what I wonder was the actual charge and what had been cited for said enforcement and by whom?

CFT
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#9 Posted : 10 November 2007 12:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bob Youel


more info a domestic person charged via construction law

Apparently a person who was at work delivered a construction associated part e.g. a bath panel to the location and fell down a hole - thats all I can remember

technically it was private property so I thought that the same legal avenue would apply where a postman [if there are any left!] delivers a parcel and falls down a hole - as I would look at 'domestic' law as against construction law for some remedy

anybody else remember the case?
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#10 Posted : 12 November 2007 13:05:00(UTC)
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Posted By AHS
I think only the HSE enforce CDM 2007 after having carefully read the Regulations/ACOP in particular Reg 2.

I could be wrong as the HSE website seems to insinuate otherwise.
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#11 Posted : 12 November 2007 13:23:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
I know not answering your questions but just noticed that L144 the CDM ACoP doesn't actually have the 'Regulation bit' written in italics!

Is this a first or a deliberate mistake!

Any way its HSE for Contruction
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#12 Posted : 12 November 2007 14:00:00(UTC)
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Posted By ddraigice
It is NOT just HSE that deals with construction.

See http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/23-15.htm and do a "ctrl f" to find construction.

But HSE will always deal with domestic construction.

For non-notifiable work in shops/offices etc (those that LA enforce) the LA will enforce the construction activity unless it is external work - in which case it's HSE irrespective of whether it's an LA enforced premises.
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#13 Posted : 12 November 2007 14:21:00(UTC)
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Posted By AHS
LA dont deal with CDM 2007 according to L144(unless I have missed something although they allude to it on their website)but obviously that doesnt preclude other Regs that would effect Construction type issues ie electricians in their office/warehouse remit etc such as Noise/Asbestos/Work at Height etc.
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#14 Posted : 12 November 2007 14:40:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
ddraigice

The link you give is to the old site which has not yet been updated by the HSE. The clue is in the CDM94 reference.

This is a problem with the HSE web and I have asked the question several times - Ther chance of an urgent update is pretty small.

Bob
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#15 Posted : 12 November 2007 14:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By ddraigice
Bob,

CDM 07 has no effect on the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations 1998, which is what the link refers to. Or Appendix 2 of these regulations to be precise - other than the term CDM 94 hasn't changed to CDM 07.

CDM 94 and 07 only define the term construction they do not regulate enforcement areas.

Other than this, the same rules apply. LA enforce non-notifiable construction work that is internal to an LA enforced premises, that is not segregated off. To complicate matters, the exception is for asbestos which falls to LA in LA enforced premises even if segregated.


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#16 Posted : 12 November 2007 15:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By ddraigice
AHS,

The ACOP may mention the fact that LA's do not enforce notifiable projects under CDM 07 but not construction per se. Where is the exact quote?
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#17 Posted : 12 November 2007 16:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By AHS
L144 does not appear to mention LAs at all but does carefully define construction.

The Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations 1998 seem to make it clear that the HSE enforces all types of construction but not for example interior decorating or hanging blinds in a non segregated inside area.
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#18 Posted : 12 November 2007 20:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Colin Stapleton
Thanks for responding to my question - to elaborate on why I asked it, I am about to do a dissertation on the topic and thought I would test the water a bit and check that I wasn't overlooking an obvious point.

My reason for looking at this is since CDM 2007 incorporates ALL construction work, why confuse the matter by having two regulating autorities enforce it but more importantly is it possible that the people most likely be involved in incidents are micro businesses to SME's, most of those have little or no professinal H&S backup and one look at these revised regs confirms their thoughts that it is a waste of time.

As for the HSE enforcing - if it ain't notified, they're not too concerned and the industry knows it!

Thanks
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#19 Posted : 13 November 2007 12:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Good point however I wouldn't say they were not concerned they just don't know where the work is being done.
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#20 Posted : 13 November 2007 16:35:00(UTC)
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Posted By RobAnybody
It should be the HSE that takes an enforcing role in this area but as I have found to my cost they are not interested.

The house at the end of my street has had major building works for over 4 months now in which time a large concrete pump & a large crane have been brought in. In both cases the vehicles had to be parked on a public highway & there was no attempt to keep the public away from the very large & heavy moving parts (counter balances, stabilisers etc. They even managed to pour a huge amount of concrete down the drain but no-one seems bothered.

The builders regularly climb the scaffold without safety gear on & the sight is a real dump. I don't think they know what ear defenders are either.

The principle contractors don't give a brass monkeys & we've even had a builder threaten my 70+ year old neighbour with a punch up the conker. It's so very genteel really.

I phoned the HSE twice, but they were not interested.

Mind you neither are Leeds City Council or our local county councilor so in answer to your question, if is notifiable then the HSE should be the enforcing authority but they don't & no-one else takes anything more than a passing interest.

Sorry, grumpy.

Rob
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