Posted By Martin Taylor
This may go down as one of the less taxing questions on this forum but i thought I'd seek some opinions before jumping in feet first.

Today I came across a contractor with an Oxy Acetylene set - Oxy bottle laid on the floor on it's side!!!!! Whilst observing him and his colleague saw him roll the bottle some 2 meters.

When confronted they gave me their view that if the bottle can not be secured upright it is acceptable (and safe) to lie down.

Unless I am seriously loosing it this is the worst excuse known to man.

So my question(s) are:-

1) are there any acceptable situations where gas bottles can be safely laid on their side?

2) are there any acceptable situations where bottles can be rolled - even over small distances?

On a slightly different level what measures are recorded to safely transport oxy/acetylene set in a transit van?

many thanks for all contributors, including all sarcastic ones about how naive I am to accept this excuse - if only for a moment

Martin

Posted By ITK
1) are there any acceptable situations where gas bottles can be safely laid on their side?

Yes in a dedicated storage rack

2) are there any acceptable situations where bottles can be rolled - even over small distances?

No

Posted By TK
Martin

The work practices you observed are nothing less than "short cuts" by people who can't be bothered to take their time to do the task properly and safely.

Start quoting the regs to these workers, their supervisors and managers!

There's plenty to read on the safe use, transport and storage of cylinders on the HSE website. The British Compressed Gases Association (BCGA) have good summarised guidance too.

I've attached a link to both sites.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/cdg/index.htm
http://www.bcga.co.uk/preview/about.php

Thomas

Posted By Ian G Hutchings
Martin

I certainly wouldn't 'start quoting the regs' as mentioned in a previous post. Blimey, no wonder we get people annoyed.

I think it is better to talk through the possible incident outcomes and see what measures can be taken to reduce the risk of injury. In asking open questions you may find out why they are really doing this, is it; because they genuinely can't be bothered, their boss won't buy them a decent trolley, the one they had is broken?

Sometimes (quite often I find), people have genuinely just not thought about the hazard or indeed even know the implications. Focusing on the potential outcomes may be enough to help them take personal action, rather than just telling, which may only have a short term effect.


Good luck

Ian

Posted By Brett Day

I wasn't advocating quoting the regs, however, there are times when you may need to refer to legislation.

I put forward the BOC document as I have found it to be very usefull, lots of pictures and diagrams with plain english text that tells in practical terms how to handle cylinders safely.

Please read post rather than read into the post and assume !!

Posted By Ian G Hutchings
Hi

Just in response to a few remarks. I suggest finding out why people don't comply and setting workable standards that can be complied with. These are then enforced and I wouldn't advocate for a minute giving people too much slack.

It is also presumptuous to believe that people always act in a certain way because they can't be bothered to comply with a certain procedure or rule. Most people I meet are happy to comply when they understand the relative risk of something.

If your site rules clearly state rules for the use of gas cylinders and contractors don't comply, obviously you need to act to protect them and all the interested parties. Some ways of working round rules can on occasion actually be safer. This doesn't mean that the rule shouldn't be there, maybe it should be more practical.

Anyway, I'm sure you've got enough information now.

All the best

Ian

Posted By John Murgatroyd
Oxygen can be used on its side, acetylene cannot. If the acetylene cylinder is on its side for more than a few seconds it should not be used, after it is restored to an upright position, for several hours. Acetylene, while a gas, is stored in the cyclinder dissolved in acetone, which is itself held saturated in a "sponge" compound. Rolling the cylinder should be discouraged. It is unlikely to damage the cylinder itself but may damage the brass valve, if this shears off a full cyclinder will closely resemble a torpedo.
Basically, all fuel gas cylinders should be used upright. All cylinders should be stored upright. Anybody who does not know these simple facts should not be allowed near either fuel gas cylinders or high pressure cylinders.

Posted By Al..
I am not sure that this has answered the question. Yes, Acetylene and LPG should always be used upright. But I cannot see a problem with using an oxygen cylinder on its side. Neither can I see a problem with rolling an oxygen cylinder a few metres in a careful manner.

We need to be able to explain to the contractor's staff why their practice is dangerous. What could happen? Is it simply that the valve could be damaged by rolling the cylinder and that the valve could also be damaged if the cylinder was dropped accidentally while being moved from the vertical to the horizontal in preparation for use in the horizontal position?

Or is that we want to get them into the habit of using all cylinders in an upright position to avoid any chance of them accidentally placing an acetylene or LPG cylinder in the horizontal position - forgetting that it is different to an oxygen cylinder?

Posted By GT
Al,

Why would you want to roll an oxygen cylinders on its side?

How would you propose you get it to floor level?

A good reason for not doing it is one oxygen stored in these cylinders is in liquid form ?

If you tip the cylinder onto its side and a leak occurs you have a liquid release rather than a gas release?

The liquid release quickly expands I think about 240 times greater than the same volume of liquid?

Any resultant gas cloud of oxygen seriously reduces the ignition temperature of materials in the surrounding cloud area? BOOM !

Seems like a good enough reason to keep cylinders upright and stored as per manufacturers recommendations.

Regards


GT

Posted By Al..
GT said: "A good reason for not doing it is....oxygen stored in these cylinders is in liquid form ? If you tip the cylinder onto its side and a leak occurs you have a liquid release rather than a gas release?"

I don't think so. Carbon dioxide under pressure in a cylinder is in liquid form. LPG is also in liquid form and acetylene is dissolved in a liquid (in acetone). Oxygen however is gaseous at room temperature, even at 300 bar.

So I ask the question again, why can the cylinder not be used on its side. I am sure that there is a good reason. It is just that we have not yet found it and so we cannot tell the contractor's staff why they must have their cylinder in the vertical position.

Posted By Crim
Gas cutting cylinders should ideally be secured in a trolley for use around site.

Where there is no trolley I would think that lying a cylinder down would prevent it from falling therefore it is in a safe position. Acetylene must remain standing!

You should really track back and see if the contractor has been competence checked as they do not sound very good to me, especially with rolling cylinders in mind. Did they have a risk assessment for the task, if so it was not suitable and sufficient as they did not have the correct equipment. i.e. trolley.

Transporting by transit van is OK as long as necessary precautions are taken, however manual handling assessment must be done and, if the set was in a trolley, a ramp should be utilised.

I always ask such contractors to remove gas cutting sets from site each and every evening. This topic has been well discussed here recently.

Posted By Karen Todd
Could you use propane instead of acetylene? Slightly cheaper & no requirement to let cylinder sit for certain time after being moved.

Posted By John Murgatroyd
I fail to see the problem.
Getting the cowboys off sites is the current way of reducing accidents.
Those using the gas cutting gear should be trained in its use, if they are not then they are an accident waiting to happen.
Those not respecting, and using, the safety policy that the contractors [supposedly] are working with are (again) an accident waiting to happen.
Construction sites are full of idiots without equipping them with items with a stored pressure of over 1 ton for every square inch.
But then again.....maybe that's why construction accidents are going up.....because the H&S oversight (and the people doing it) are just not competent at their job. Too much time spent criticising CSCS (and other H&S schemes) and not enought timeon the job they are supposed to do.

Posted By Tom100
"Construction sites are full of idiots"
"NO JOB"
"I fail to see the problem."

Of course you don't John. That's because YOU ARE the problem.

I have no doubt you run a safe site. People will submit to your dictates for no better reason than that if they don't, they are out of a job. But they come to resent you and everything you stand for. You might be so thick skinned you don't care about that, or possibly even welcome it, but it is evident from this forum that there are other professionals who are sick to death of being despised because they are associated with arrogant H&S people like yourself. You are doing your colleagues a disservice.

Try treating people with respect. Help them understand why the rules are there. If you respect them, they will respect you and maybe even do things because they want to please you, not because they are frightened of you and the power you hold over them. That way they might actually work safely as a matter of habit, and not just because you happen to be around at the time.

Posted By John Murgatroyd
NO HARD-HAT ?
NO SAFETY BOOTS ?
NO HI-VIZ ?

NO JOB

These signs, and many like them, are common on construction sites.
They mean what they say.
Some people only understand things spelt-out like that.
It's not about treating them like reasonable people and they'll respond in a positive manner. It's about telling them that their "get it done quick no matter what" behaviour will mean they'll be off the site post-haste.
If they knew what they were doing, and had done the relevant "knowledge", they would not be rolling high pressure gas cylinders around a construcion site. If they roll the dissolved acetylene around then things get much more exciting. Those cylinders are much easier to damage....or dent, being thinner than the 200 BAR cylinders. A dented da cylinder can mean there is a void in the cylinder where actylene gas can form.....acetylene is highly unstable in its gaseous form at pressures over 25 PSI. Work it out.

Posted By GT
Al, So you spotted the red herring but avoided the other questions I see?

Couldn't believe the initial reading of someone involved in safety accepting a practice such as and I quote "rolling for a short distance carefully".

What is a short distance to you? and perhaps to the next operator? Over what terrain is this acceptable and is there a slope where control of the cylinder can be lost?

What is your interpretation of carefully ?

Is it going to be the same as the next person who practices this method of operation?

I would be interested in what scenario this is acceptable, why you would want to do it, is there a safer method, what are the consequences of repeatedly conducted and condoning this practice when any day due to lack of control and procedure the valve spindle is broken and 300 bars of pressure are released??


GT

Posted By Al..
This is becoming a rather peevish thread, but never mind if it helps us better understand what we should be doing.

My position is that I recognise that it is accepted good practice to always store and operate cylinders in the vertical position and not to roll them around the site. However I don't understand why this needs to be the case. If I encountered people doing it on site, all I would be able to say to them is "Don't do that, it is against the safety rules". I would like to be able to treat people with more respect and explain why the practice is dangerous.

So these are my conclusions as to why it is considered bad practice:
1) There is no danger from the contents from operating an oxygen cylinder on its side but the act of picking it up and laying it down could result in an accident. There is also a danger that people could mix up their cylinders and try to operate an acetylene cylinder on its side.
2) There would be no danger from rolling an oxygen cylinder carefully for a few metres on its side but, in the environment of a construction site, allowing this could result in cylinders be rolled for longer distances in a careless manner. This could damage the cylinder, damage the markings on the cylinder and also there is a risk of damage to the valve with potentially catastrophic effects.

My response to the workers on the site would be to explain this to them. I would also explain that while what they were doing did not present any immediate dangers, we wanted them to set a good example to others on the site and this required them to conform to our site rules.

Yes, enforce the rules, but let make sure that we understand why the rules are in place so that we can engage in discussions with the workers on the site and explain why the rules are required.

Posted By Tom100
Excellent post, Al. I agree one hundred per cent.

The statistics in the link John gave are interesting. There is nothing about accidents from gas cylinders, but it does tell us that "Injuries involving handling, lifting or carrying accounted for 38% of all over-3-day injuries to employees in construction." On that basis, the workers who rolled that oxygen bottle just 2m could argue with some merit that it was safer to roll it than to lift it and carry it. I am sure you would give them some credit for that, within the context of what you are saying - e.g. "that's good thinking, but here is the bigger picture... "

Posted By GT
AL,

I see no evidence in the thread that contributors are becoming irritable.

On the contrary they are at least getting some recognition to their claims as you admit inyou last posting that there is a danger somewhere involved in the handling of Oxygen cylinders and not following best international practice.

Again I don't think you have given thought or been involved in the ergonomics of the lifting and lowering of such cylinders. Any risk assessment you may conduct into this activity would surely identify that there are not readily made handles for this purpose or any ball races fitted around the cylinder to help when you move that short distance by rolling, and no braking system to stop them once rolling then there is the absence of the parking brake..

The cylinder in question is also not manufactured with a material designed for 'rolling", additionally they are identified by a colour coding which if engaged in rolling over any surface less than an anti static carpeting will cause deterioration and removal of that colour coding.

Another valid reason I am sure you will agree is that when such cylinders are stored or rolled in this fashion there is the possibility of picking up oil, grease, etc. Should this come into contact with the connecting threads of the cylinder then perhaps when you next connect the cylinder manifold to the cylinder and you open the cylinder valve, you will find a very good reason to follow the good guidance and practice that has kept you safe for so long.

GT

Posted By John Murgatroyd
Oxy-Acetylene power-point safety presentation. USA.

http://www.depweb.state....ing/ppt/oxyacetylene.ppt

Apart from the hose colours (colors) it is appropriate here.