Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Afternoon

Wonder if you could help?

When I started my current job it was on the understanding that I undertake the NEBOSH Dipoma Level 6 which they would pay for in order to become the organisations "Competent" person.

It took a year and 4 months but I am now taking the Diploma. To be honest, the timing could have been better, work has been a nightmare, plus moving out plus making marriage arrangements has left little time for revision and studying.

However, I hope to successfully finish in July, after all, I have wanted to do the Diploma for about 7 years now.

While attending a lecture, a tutor stated that under Section 9 of the HASAWA employers could not charge us for the course if we left, even if we had signed an agreement.

My issue is, before I took the course I had to sign a piece of paper stating that if I left before two years I would have to pay pay back a certain amount, I think about half. This was not in my original contract of employment but like I said, something I had to sign about a month before I commenced the Diploma.

My query is that under Section 9 it states,

"No employer shall levy or permit to be levied on any employee of his charge in respect of anything done or provided in pursuance of any specific requirements of the relevant statutory provisions."

And as I was to undertake the Diploma level 6 in order to become the "Competent person" under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulatons - Reg 7, if I were to leave, would I legally have to pay back the course fee?

I am just looking at this from a very black and white legal point of view, not a moral one.

Many thanks for your time.

Mark

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Mark

This is a grey area. Under Section 2 of HSWA employers are required to provide Information, Instruction, Training and Supervision. If your employer made it a requirement of you to do the NEBOSH prior to giving you the job then you would have a very good case.

However if you have requested some training but it was not a requirement of the job, but was a nice to have. Then the company would have a case.

Not many companies persue an ex employ for the money. However if you have signed a document stating you will refund part or all if you leave within a period of time then you can't really complain.

Basically its standard practise and if they are willing to pay for training why do you want to leave? They can't be that bad.

Steve

Posted By garyh
Consult a lawyer! You can see them under the "1st meeting is free" scheme or some such thing. Or try the Citizen's advice people. If you leave for pastures new and they try to get the costs back from you, I would write to the MD pointing out the iniquity of it all, and do they really want their image to be that of a bullying, grasping bunch of scrooges? In the local newspaper? In the SHP?

If that fails, go to the small claims court and see what happens. (Incidentally are you in a Trades Union? If so ask their advice. If not join one and do the same).

Don't allow yourself to be bullied or harassed over this.

Posted By Jonathan Breeze
I think this is the thread to which John refers:

http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...iew&forum=1&thread=28708

Hope it is useful in helping you understand the reasoning.

Posted By Merlin
Where has commitment gone?
The company has provided training and expense for you, well, show commitment and do the job for them using the skills you have been trained for

If you leave just after qualifying, the company would then think again about spending time and effort on others, and in time refuse to train anyone

I ran a transport company for 20years trained drivers to HGV and enabled them to gain experience all at my expense, all I asked in return is please give commitment to the job and looked for at least two years after the gained the HGV. So why if you leave immediately you qualify why it is unreasonable for the company to ask for their money back

If you only take the job for a short time to gain experience, on the road for a better job and prospects, then do the training at your expense and time

My experience in H/S in ten years I have paid in time and money over £20000 and not expected others to pay, I wanted to be a good H/S manager so I took the time and put in the effort and accepted the expence

Posted By Merlin
Mark

I did not miss the point, its just that every time I see a question like this 90% of the time is because someone is thinking of moving on to a new job and looking to get out of an agreement, and it gets my blood boiling. I suspect they have just got the first job because the company is willing to pay for training and they have the second job because they have that qualification

When a company pays for training of this nature then the person concerned should give back commitment or the money

Posted By peter gotch
It is not a SPECIFIC requirement, therefore Section 9 does NOT apply to this training.

Claw back arrangements for fees are very common practice, often with a new employer ending up paying out a golden handshake.

Regards, Peter

Posted By maddog RM
Were you already competent when you were taken on by your employer? Did you convince your employer you were competent at the job interview?

Has your role changed/have you been promoted since joining? If so, did you sit down with your employer and agree this was the course to ensure you are trained to the correct level for this new role?

If the training is for personal development and is outside your role remit and you have signed a contract they have got you by the short and curlys.

PS It drives me mad when health and safety professionals refer to themselves as NEBOSH qualified. NEBOSH what? One day manual handling course.

Posted By Edward Shyer

Was this training included into your contract of employment and if so what were the terms and conditions of this training.

Legally deductions from salary are only permitted by statutory provision generally speaking this would be PAYE, national insurance contributions and attachment of earnings orders and the like or if the employee has consented in writing stating the deduction can be made from their salary.

Check your agreement its wording.

Regards
Ted

Posted By Jean
I would ask your tutor for case examples.

The company offered you a contract you signed it, and this then nullified any previous contracts. The section you referred to states specific this is is usually taken as PPE etc, manual handling

The contract seems reasonable to me. Personally given the costs of legal actions. I would simply put in your reference. Mark signed an agreement that if the company paid for his diploma training in h & S he would remain with the company for 2 years or pay back an appropriate amount of money. He has refused to do. Due to the potential high legal costs the company has decided not to pursue any legal actions against Mark to recover the costs. This would be factual.

It costs nothing for the first half hour of legal advice. The remainder are about £178 + Vat per hour.

A good solicitor if you take all the relevant paperwork will be able to tell you whether you should just pay up.

Posted By Jean
I wish you the same Mark. How about taking the free half hour from a solicitor who specialises in health and safety law, and then tell the rest of us what the legal eagles would would say. Ask them for cases that we can look up.

Oh, and it isn't selfish attempting to get opinions on this site. This is what this site is meant to be about.

Jean