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Posted By trevor clohessy
I am compiling a risk assessment and hs plan for an extension project to a supermarket. Works will be carried out during normal supermarket hours, so please could someone point me in the direction where i can obtain safety information regarding construction works in the vicinity of "live" public areas. Thanks
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Posted By Brett Day
The HSE Publication 'Protecting the Public, Your next move' is a good publication, having dome some work for supermarkets I've found that they often have comprehensive rules for contractors working on 'live' stores.
Don't forget the public tend to be inquisitive and love to go where they are not supposed to so good segregation and good security - gates / doors manned or some form of permanent security is a must.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Trevor, you don't say what role you're supporting, however I'm guessing you are working with or for the Principal or other Building Contractor?
Always bear in mind that there can be tasks involved that will require special consideration or out-of-hours work, such as material deliveries, movement of large plant, lifting operations (especially structural elements) etc.
Also bear in mind that large Supermarkets can be a 24/7 operation (opening hours and night time stock delivery) and that there may well be certain phases of the work that will require close liaison and careful planning with the Client.
HSG 151 is the reference for the HSE Books publication "Protecting the Public - your next move".
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
90% of the task will have to be resolved in conjunction with the PC, presuming it is not you, and the local store management. The Pre-construction information will have outlined many of the specific requirements and areas to look at, so these should be given to you by the PC - If not, ask asap before you go further.
If you are the PC then I am afraid you may already be, potentially, in breach of regulation 4 CDM07. This requires organisations not competent to do the work not to do it. It is all very well to pick up publications but I am afraid information alone does not make you, ie the organisation, competent.
Bob
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Posted By Ron Hunter
I think slightly contentious ground there Bob. The PC (If indeed this is a PC) could be very competent and highly experienced in major construction projects across the UK. It may just be that this is the first Project they have undertaken with a significant public/client overlap?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Ron
Not as contentious a suggesting that work can be done without the necessary competencies available to the organisation. Are they then competent to do it without some expertise in the hazards? We need to address the reality of regulation 4 CDM07. How can an organisation be competent to manage the project if they do not themselves know the hazards. You will note that I carefully exclude other contractors from this statement.
Organisations need to recognise that if they wish to move into other areas of work and are to manage it then they must ensure that they employ, in some way, the appropriate competencies to carry out the work in accordance with regulation 4.
Bob
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Posted By trevor clohessy
just got some free time to look up forum. Lol were an Irish based company and are regarded as one of the top ten contractors in Ireland and have constructed many of the aforementioned projects.
My reason for requesting information on this forum was to see if others had come across literature or information sources regarding works in the vicinity of live areas.
As an old saying goes:
Don't Jump To Conclusions -- Let The Facts Guide You
Thanks to those who provided useful information
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Trevor
If questions are openly phrased one responds accordingly, if information is hidden one has to expect people to assess all angles and the replies may be not what you expect. It is after all what experienced practitioners do all the time.
My points about competency still stand however. The fact that you did not explain yourself fully does not mean the answers were not useful. It is the penalty of vague questions that the discussion spins off to where it will.
Bob
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Posted By trevor clohessy
Bob
Your views on competency have been voiced loud and clear. Obviously you and your organization are very very competent individuals.
I was Obviously incompetent to seek the valued information of other safety professionals
I should make it my new years resolution to abstain from asking irrelevant and lamentably unenlightened questions. :)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Trevor
Do not take my words to heart. The best advice is always given when one understands fully the context of what is being asked.
Perhaps I am becoming too long in the tooth and encountering too many contractors trying to do more than they can deal with. I then become very attuned to particular phrases:-)
Bob
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Bob, I was going to expand on your competency discussions, however I see you have been suitably chastised already! ;-)
From another perspective, do you consider it realistic to expect a prospective PC to be excluded at tender stage only because he had never worked on such a specific Project?
If the pre-construction information only expresses the issues surrounding the general public in the most general of terms, then the initial construction phase plan cannot be expected to respond other than in general terms.
If the pre-construction information mentions some specifics there will usually be enough clues for the PC to pick up on in his response.
Either way, the PC might be asked to expand on a particular point, but surely not be excluded?
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Ron
No - If the PC can pick up and use the information in the PCI this shows an ability to use information provided. I also expect however that the PC will have a robust system to identify and manage risks on site as part of the CP also.
Competent persons/competence is a minefield but I think even the HSE do not fully realise the realities of some of the regulatory requirements. The interest will begin to become apparent I think aas case law in CDM07 begins to build in this area. Most organisations I deal with are relatively poor at managing competence and seem to think it means purely that they have trained their personnel.
Where an organisation enters a new field of work one would anticipate that it would have identified the resources it requires, including personnel. This means having some sort of selection measures appropriately set together with other managerial controls. Kieran would probably be licking his lips here at the integrated HR/H&S/Operational management approach.
Bob
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Bob,
As I explore the performance of CDM Project duty holders across a variety of Projects, my conclusion has to be that no-one can be considered to be 100% competent.If I follow all competency evalautions through to conclusion, I will run out of contractors!
I would rather recognise this and foster and embrace a true Team approach to the improved management of risk - a key CDM Principle - particularly where significant client overlap issues exist.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Ron
Yes ultimately the client may accept a less than a 100% competent contractor but with the recognition that the management input from the rest of the team to the contractor may have to be increased.
We have as co-ordinators to be absolutely transparent in the manner of competence assessment and straightforward with clients about the position. We can assist contractors but only those who recognise the need for help, or perhaps admit to it. I am not about barring contractors from work, well not always!!:-)
Bob
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