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Posted By Mike Dallow
Advice please should employees be disciplined after an accident and potentially dismissal
my views are if the investigation proves that an employee carries out a task knowing and is conscious of the fact that it contradicts their training then i can understand after retraining following disciplinary procedures
But if an employee has an accident of which they was unaware or lapsed in concentration as all human people do this, should not result in disciplinary action
i find it harsh that we bang on about their lawful duty to report accidents but then when complying with this they get disciplined.
but on the other hand how do we deal with employees who have a high rate of accidents do we discipline these
My other fear is installing this approach and knowing corporate manslaughter is coming live soon we won't have a true picture of the level of health and safety because employees won't report accidents
Please advise
Nigel
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Posted By Melanie Fellows No advice either way (each case reviewed individually in my experience and never had to discipline anyone yet). I've just come across this free website which may be of interest. http://www.behavioural-safety.com/Mel
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Posted By Andrew M
Depends on your culture, the employee, and the incident
Some places I have worked - 3 instances not wearing correct PPE in a 12 month period would lead to dismissal.
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Posted By garyh
I would advise you to thoroughly investigate the underlying or root causes of the accident, not just the immediate cause.
Are you saying that there was NO failing of the safety management system at all and that this was entirely the fault of the individual (whether error or deliberate violation)?
Have shortcuts been tolerated, ever? Blind eyes turned? Do Managers ALWAYS lead by example and work safely? Was the worker competent, trained, supervised properly (etc) If any of these aren't right you can't, in my view pick on one worker.....
If you are then still confident of your workers culpability, why not invite your local HSE Inspector (or failing that, a friendly neutral local experienced IOSH member) to review the investigation?
Food for thought............
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Posted By Sally
would you have disciplined the worker for the same action if an accident hadn't resulted?
That is the question I always ask myself.
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Posted By Tabs
In most organisations, the H&S would provide a thorough report to senior management and HR for them to decide what course of action is appropriate (and legal).
I share your dilemma though ... as an investigator, you will often feel like offering an amnesty to those you investigate.
Ask yourself "If there was no accident, and I chose to look at his/her actions, what would I do if I found them doing what they did?"
If your culture is to retrain and coach rather than discipline, then you have your answer.
If you think someone is taking serious risks and you will not be able to control that, you must look at other actions.
The middle ground is to tell them they are subject to disciplinary action, but to suspend the penalty, keeping it for any recurrence.
Hope that helps.
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Posted By Tabs
ha, ha, "Snap" Sally ...
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Posted By Paul Duell
If someone has knowingly broken a safety rule and been injured - treat them exactly the same as if they'd broken the same rule and caused someone else to be injured. How that works depends on the individual circumstances: Was there management pressure to cut corners, had breaking the same rule been "tolerated" in the past, etc.
Personally, I think most workplaces (or at least, most that I've worked at) are too soft on this. If you break a rule and there's an accident, you should enter the disciplinary process. But that process must be robust enough to take account of mitigating circumstances like management pressure, PPE unavailable and not the IP's fault, etc.
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Posted By Ian_P
It is hard on some occasions to justify disciplinary action. I agree, when there is a potentially life threatening or serious breach of safety rules then disciplinary action may be necessary.
On the flip side, most companies have "those" individuals who constantly ignore safety rules and fail to wear PPE etc. etc.
In our company we have a "Employees Safety Responsibility" training session. Individuals who are 'susceptible' to accidents (where subsequent investigation has found no apparent reason why) or are found to flout safety rules spend an entire afternoon with my good self.
We investigate their accidents, review the risk assessments together and also spend a good couple of hours discussing section 7.
This always goes down a treat!!!
If this fails to change their ways, which it rarely does, then I'm afraid the last resort is disciplinary action.
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Posted By Paul Duell
**On the flip side, most companies have "those" individuals who constantly ignore safety rules and fail to wear PPE etc. etc.**
We had one at my last workplace, his manager tolerated his attitude because he was so good at getting the job done - even though he'd had enough informal warnings for a dozen lifetimes, it was never taken any further.
The last time he cut a safety corner, he shattered his ankle. He'll never work again. OK, he did it to himself, but if we'd been better at the discipline earlier on, it probably wouldn't have happened.
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Posted By garyh
He should sue for compo - and should win. The management encouraged or turned a blind eye to his rule breaking, and should take the consequences.
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Posted By Ian_P
That's exactly what I'm saying, we shouldn't turn a blind eye. We should give extra training and, if necessary, disciplinary action.
In my experience, the extra training is more beneficial in dealing with the individual AND raising the overall safety profile. If you start going around sacking everyone it won't do much for your 'open' safety culture.
Apologies if I've misread the post but if people are saying they don't have "those" individuals they are looking through rose coloured spectacles!
I agree that such individuals need to be made aware that their behaviour is unacceptable but more importantly they need to be made aware of their legal responsibilities under safety law, especially s.7. What I was trying to say is that there are other ways of doing this besides disciplinary.
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Posted By mike morland
Perhaps consideration should also be given to the possibility of the offending individual eventually being the cause of another persons accident unless early remedial action is taken.
If disciplinary action is necessary to get them to think with a little more clarity, then so be it. After all they do have a duty to take care of their own health and safety too.
Its a two way street.
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Posted By Pete Longworth
In the situation where an employee continually ignores safety rules and subsequently has an accident it has been said that disciplinary action should be considered. I agree, as long as it includes the supervisors and managers all the way up the chain that have continually allowed it to happen. The higher the level of responsibility, the more severe the action. Oh and that especially includes the "health and safety professional" involved.
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Posted By Pete Longworth
GaryH just seen your post. Spot on.
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Posted By Jean
Well said Pete
In one organisation I worked for, a Health and Safety Consultant was told to take a softly softly approach to Health and Safety by the Head of Personnel. Didn't prick his conscience when he picked up his inflated pay packet. However, he did sing to the right music. Is it reasonable to disciple an individual for any activity that results in an accident/incident when anyone higher up the chain had been aware of the activity. Good management processes would suggest that if a manager argues that he didn't know, that maybe he/she should be disciplined for failing to undertake their role appropriately.
I have never undertaken an investigation yet, where a blind eye wasn't turned by someone in the chain.
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Posted By Martin Taylor
I am going to generally concur with most views here. If an investigation identifies that the actions of any parties has fallen below the standard expected in the company (whether at worker, supervisor or manager level) then appropropriate action should be taken.
The purpose of the disciplinary process is twofold:-
1) to make plain to the individual that their behaviour and actions is not acceptable and to for a basis for demonstrating improvements (e.g. action lapses after 3 months subject to satisfactory improvements (for example)
2) punishment for an offence - unfortunately most people see the 2nd point and the consequent negatives of being punished.
The matter should also identify actions below the standard - for an individual worker if it can be shown that a number of his fellow workers would have done the same thing (through bad custom and practice) it is not morally right to discipline as the fault is symptomatic of poor management practices.
Three thoughts for those with qualms about using discipline to deal with below standard performance:-
1) if the injury is self injury i.e. the IP has caused his own accident then failing to discipline will be seen by claimant as acceptance of the practice - happened to me IP given verbals - submitted claim and won becasue employer not strong enough
2) what other actions commonly lead to discipline in your areas? Bad timekeeping I dare say - why discipline for bad timekeeping and not for bad safety practices
3) what do you say to the victim of a serial safety rule breaker when asked 'why didn't you deal with them.
Gottan stress any discipline must be based on a thorough and impartial investigation that identifies the specific safety issue and action must be commensurate.
If you work in a culture where coaching/training/development work then great but if the Carrot doesn't the only answer is to be strong and use the STICK
Martin
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Posted By John J
A human performance balance of error chart would help you identify culpability.
A key question is 'Would (or has) a "similar person" have done the same thing in the same situation.
Once you've identified that the individual is not wholly responsible there should be no recourse to diciplinery action.
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Posted By Adrian Watson
I have such a chart if anybody wants one email me.
Regards Adrian Watson
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