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#1 Posted : 08 February 2008 21:01:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rod
Firstly, I must warn that this thread deals with very severe risks which many people might prefer not to think about, which is a fair choice that I respect.
So, anyone of a nervous disposition should read no further - really.

But most of us are Risk Assessors, so should be OK with this.

I wish to discuss the biggest Risk Assessment I have ever been asked to do, of truly global implication. I have tried to be proportionate, but the Severity has to be higher than the normal maximum of 5. I would like the opinions of other members on this.

The Risk Assessment is on the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, near Geneva in Switzerland. The largest Physics experiment ever is due to start there in May this year. Two beams of atomic particles will be accelerated to nearly the speed of light in a circular vacuum tube 27 km circumference 100m below ground. One beam will travel clockwise; the other anticlockwise. They will be controlled by a series of extremely powerful super-conducting electromagnets cooled to almost Absolute Zero by liquid helium.
At a certain point, the 2 beams will be brought to a head-on collision with incredible force, which will cause the atomic particles to break into sub-atomic particles in ways that the Physicists do not yet understand. This, of course, is the only reason for the whole project; they want to analyse the particles and hope to discover new ones that may enable them to understand how gravity works, for example.
So far, so exciting, a real chance to understand the Universe...

But, wait a minute, I thought with my Health & Safety hat on, what does the Risk Assessment say? Well, actually, they haven't done one!

So what would any Risk Assessor do in the circumstances? I researched some more and tried to do my own Risk Assessment. This is where it gets scary. It sounds like Science Fiction, but CERN themselves predict that the experiment will produce mini Black Holes and other equally worrying objects. Of course, they assure us, this will not be dangerous because the mini Black Holes will "evaporate" before they can do any damage...

I had better now give you my attempt at a Risk Assessment for you to assess..


Large Hadron Collider – a Risk Assessment

I work in Quality Assurance in industry and also have responsibilities for Health & Safety. In this rôle, I regularly carry out Risk Assessments and was therefore horrified to discover that no proper Risk Assessment appears to have been done on the LHC. In the Abstract of “Report of the LHC Safety Study Group” (2003), CERN say simply:
“We review the possibility of producing dangerous objects during heavy-ion collisions at the Large Hadron Collider. We consider all such objects that have been theoretically envisaged, such as negatively charged strangelets, gravitational black holes, and magnetic monopoles. We find no basis for any conceivable threat.”
This is not a Risk Assessment - it is merely their estimate of the likelihood of this happening.
[Of course, we can disagree with even this estimate of likelihood; for instance they make no mention here of the possibility of human or mechanical error. Before they have even started, they have had an explosive magnet failure.]
The fundamental of any science is to measure. CERN is spending millions of dollars to quantify fundamental particles; I wish to quantify the Risk by means of a Risk Assessment.
Risk Assessments do not need study groups, super computers or millions of dollars in investment. They are to me me a beautiful example of basic 'Keep It Simple, Stupid' science that can be done by anyone on the back of an envelope once they understand the basics:
Risk equals Likelihood multiplied by Severity.
In the most basic form, Likelihood is scored from 5 (Very Likely) down to 1 (Not Likely).
Similarly, Severity is scored from 5 (Very High) down to 1 (Nil).
Therefore Risk has a score from 1 (1*1) to 25 (5*5).

How do we assess the LHC?
Method 1
In the normal workplace Risk Assessment, a Severity of 5 means the death of one person.
In the case of the LHC, Severity is obviously higher.
The destruction of the planet would involve the death of 6.5 billion people, millions of species of plants and animals, the end of millions of years of evolution with no remaining life to restart it, the destruction of our past as well as our future. There would be no sign of us ever having existed, unless some alien astronomer thought: “That's an unusual place to find a black hole.”
If the Earth became a black hole, there would be effects on the rest of the Solar System. This humble scientist would assess this Severity as Infinity!
Therefore, even if you accept the CERN view of Likelihood and put in a Likelihood score of less than 1 (How about 0.0000000000001?),
Risk = (0.0000000000001 * infinity) = infinity!






Method 2
You may be uneasy about putting a value of infinity on anything. I therefore looked for this alternative method, which is from “Jordans Health and Safety Management”.
Risk Rating = Numbers * Severity * Likelihood
This method scores Severity of injury from 1 (Negligible) to 10 (Fatal),
Likelihood of occurrence from 0.5 (Improbable – probability close to zero) to 20 (Certain) and
Number of people affected: 1-5 persons score = 1,
6-50 persons score = 2,
50+ persons (or public/vulnerable persons affected) score = 3 .

There is no consideration in this formula of death of other species, environment or planet. However, let us continue! I will accept the scoring for Severity and Likelihood, but feel it necessary to adjust the scoring for Numbers.
A score of 3 is acceptable for 51 people, but 6.5 billion is somewhat higher! To obtain a reasonable score for such a number, I look at the maximum number of casualties (5) to score 1 and compare it with the maximum number (50) to score 2. The score has doubled for a ten-fold increase in casualties.
A further ten-fold increase to 500 would be the maximum for a further score doubling to 4,
5,000 = 8,
50,000 = 16,
500,00 = 32,
5,000,000 = 64,
50,000,000 = 128,
500,000,000 = 256 ,
5,000,000,000 =512,
50,000,000,000 = 1,024.
Roughly extrapolating between 512 and 1,024,
6,500,000,000 = 529
The Severity is obviously 10 (Fatal). Let us accept the lowest Likelihood of 0.5 (Improbable).
Then the Risk Rating is (529*10*0.5) = 2,645.
Jordans state that a rating of less than 10 is “Risk acceptable unless cost or effort to control risk further is very low.”
The highest they consider is 100+ “Risk totally unacceptable; immediate action required before work activity can continue.”
The LHC certainly comes well into this category!

There is no compelling reason for the deployment of the LHC - 'insatiable curiosity', existing investment and the careers of a large number of physicists do not justify any risk to the existence of the rest of us, who have had no vote on the matter. Further research into particle Physics using existing methods such as astronomical observations will answer some of the fundamental questions, although at a slower rate. Much more understanding is necessary before we can think of commissioning the LHC.
The LHC should be 'mothballed' until a future Risk Assessment passes it as safe. As the Severity of the risk is even greater than that of nuclear weapons, I propose that all such colliders be put under the control of the IAEA, who would fit locks and monitoring equipment.

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#2 Posted : 08 February 2008 21:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dominic Cooper
Hi Rod

In my youth - at least 35 years ago or so -I once applied for a post in the CERN facility, looking at photographs of the 'events' - the results of the collisions. - Did not get the post, as I was 'uneducated' at the time- ie no 'O' levels even.

Every event is photographed and the number of plusses and minuses recorded. They usually equal each other- i.e. if there are 3 plusses there are usually 3 minuses. These events last for milliseconds if that! They are recorded by numerous camera's just to be sure of getting at least 'one' decent shot! The scientists jump for joy if there is an 'uneven' number of plussess/ minusses as it means they have found something of significance.

I cannot say I knew 'black holes were created that put the whole planet at risk!- needed the money anyway, so would have done it regardless I suppose.

Anyhow, I do not know whether your risk assessment is 'realistic' or not, but it does seem a bit far fetched to include 6.5 billion people. Nontheless, I do applaud you for bringing it to everyone's attention that a risk assessment has not been done (or published anyway!).

I hope that my little scenario of events has helped put your risk assessment into a little more context, for the experts among us to be able to deliberate with .

Best wishes
Dominic
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#3 Posted : 08 February 2008 21:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Derek J Golding
... but wow! What a great example of H&S being at the cutting edge of innovation. I teach nuclear physics, at a very basic level, as part of my nuclear safety briefs, and the thought of trying to risk assess a black hole doesn't come much more daunting - imagine the risk assessments (if they existed as such) that went into Yuri Gagarin's flight. Its this sort of stuff that reminds you that H&S should be embedded in all projects. It might have made the exposure of those servicemen to the nuclear tests less necessary if the world didn't need a proven hazard to assess for - but then the world has moved on - or has it? black holes on earth - well there you go then!
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#4 Posted : 08 February 2008 22:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pete48
Well it makes my head spin but these guys seem to be heavily involved in it all. (if it is a real issue?)
http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/links.htm

As to the matter of assessing the risks, I am not sure that the methodology outlined by Rod is valid for this type of activity. We would appear to be looking at a form of catastrophic risk (a low probability natural or man-made event that creates shocks to existing social, economic, and/or environmental frameworks, and has the potential of producing very significant human and/or financial losses. Eric Banks)
Relying upon simple systems to determine such low probability/high consequence risks is known to be suspect. For one thing, the history of past events that are used to evaluate frequently occurring risks are not available to help in the quantification process.
So, as I said up top, it makes my head spin so if this actually makes any sense to anyone on this forum, maybe they will come on and help us mere spanner merchants understand a little more?
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#5 Posted : 08 February 2008 22:54:00(UTC)
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Posted By Pete48
Rod, I wonder what results you would get from following this approach?

http://www.nrc.gov/readi.../nuregs/contract/cr6823/
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#6 Posted : 09 February 2008 00:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Rod
Many thanks for all your responses - even more would be welcomed as it's such a big subject.

Dominic - you may be lucky you didn't get to work for CERN. A technician there was killed when a piece of equipment was being lowered from the surface into the tunnel - somehow the crane driver dropped the load. In the shock, one CERN Physicist wrote that he was glad to be a Physicist, not a technician! :(

Pete48 - I've downloaded the Nureg book. That's great, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Amazing how dated it seems from 2002, though, all the statistical tables!
I've got so used to doing my statistics with spreadsheets I'd started to forget I was using tables so recently! I've got a bit of reading to do this weekend now!

I've been researching LHC safety for a couple of weeks now, so I've seen a lot of the sites people have pointed me towards and have been in correspondence with some of them - http://www.lhcdefense.org/WHAT_SCIENTISTS_SAY.html - are trying to get a Court Order to prevent the LHC being commissioned until a proper Risk Assessment has said it is safe.

No matter how sophisticated the Risk Assessment, though, I keep thinking back to the basics. If we go to the Hierarchy of Control, the top choice is to avoid the Risk altogether.
I found an ALARP diagram from the HSE 1992, "The Tolerability of Risk from Nuclear Power Stations" and the top is "Intolerable Risk, (Risk cannot be justified on any grounds)"
If we compare Cost v. Benefit, the Cost is the risk being taken, the Benefit is to maybe one Physicist who is lucky to spot one collision that produces a new theory and wins the Nobel prize for Physics. So he gets the benefit, the rest of us take the risk whether we like it or not, we don't get to vote.
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#7 Posted : 09 February 2008 12:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By Garry Adams
Hi Rod,

I have just read your posting with great interest, indeed my thought bubbles are still reeling with the subject matter. The esoteric teachings of Quantum physics and the search for the meaning of life and every thing has a great fascination for me.To travel beyond the scale of Zeto and enter the realms of antimatter may prove to be a bridge to far for human comprehension. However that said, it is the maverick pioneers that push back the boundaries of logical reason with there free radical thoughts that give us explanations to questions we all seek the answers too.

Ron , I do not need to tell you that Science is is accelerating (perhaps not quite at the speed of light) atpase, especially the subject matter you refer to in your post. The Science community needs people like yourself to monitor their activities, whether this work is right or wrong it must be regulated, I concur with your views.

Regards, Garry...

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#8 Posted : 09 February 2008 12:37:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Merchant
As a physicist who's spent a while working on the topic back in the days before gray hair and cuts in science funding, the idea of the LHC wiping out the planet doesn't bother me at all, and wouldn't even appear on my RA for a set of very sensible reasons:

First, the notion of an infinite severity (or an infinite anything on an RA) is conceptually impossible. If you argue that ceasing to exist is "infinitely bad" then any accident which kills one person is infinitely severe (mathematically you can't scale infinity by a grouping factor and remain in normal dimensions). If the risk probability is non-zero then the risk-severity product is finite, or it's happened already. There's no third option.

Secondly, if the planet ceases to exist there is nobody present to measure the severity, and nobody to care. It's a metaphysical problem akin to saying "if I was never born, would I be annoyed about it?".

Thirdly, although the beam energy density of the LHC can in theory form a singularity, they're simply not the sort of singularities that swallow planets, buildings or even a particle of dust - the equations that predict we can make them also predict they won't exist long enough to do anything beyond a few atomic radii. They're cool to play with but the only cause for concern is that they spawn a massive wave of bad Hollywood disaster movies.
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#9 Posted : 09 February 2008 21:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By D H
Hi Rod.

Some good answers from respondents.

Could I possibly try to express my views on this?

Normally respondents on the subject of Risk Assessment are many, but not in this case - wonder why?

This is an instance where we are pushing outside the limits of common knowledge. Remember when the first nuclear stations came on line? There was no requirement under law to state that Risk Assessments were done and recorded. Remember when the first person went into space? Controlled by risk assessment or done as it happened??

Then comes the problem you have.

We have the the common generic risk assessments for getting the place set up, specific risk assessment for the various risks from certain equipment - activities etc.

How can you risk assess against something you cannot reasonably forsee?
The Regs only require employers to guard against "reasonably foreseeable" risks and in this case you take in new science.

We must remember that society needs to learn - we need to do and suffer the consequences before we realise there is a consequence - its the way that people learn.

Now this is a reactive rather than a proactive response.
But how can you be proactive if you do not know the outcome?

This is where dynamic risk assessment comes into play - where the unexpected needs to be dealt with immediately.

Image a police officer chasing a suspect over a fence - the suspect is over the fence maybe 5 seconds before the officer and is maybe now in charge of the chase? Dynamic assessment due to the results and findings of the situation.

Now the company involved are aware of the potential problems and the severity - short lived - so we learn - possibly the hard way??

But the key is finding out the problems and then dealing with the after math.
We as humans only learn after it has gone to
r- t [expletive deleted]

Dave
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#10 Posted : 10 February 2008 18:04:00(UTC)
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Posted By Simon Zeigler
Perhaps we need to go back to basics, why do we do a risk assessment? I think it is fair to say that your assessment will not stop the activity, and since the end result can not change, and the end result rather than the machine is being risk assessed, you may as well take out of the equation the destruction of the world. If it all goes pear shaped and the globe is sucked into a black hole, no one will hold you accountable. All the same I am pleased it is not my problem.

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#11 Posted : 11 February 2008 08:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Brazier
It seems to be that a simplistic method of assessing personal risks is being used for catastrophic events. This, in my opinion will never work.

If you used the same method to assess the risk of road fatality on a global scale what would you conclude. According to the BBC 3000 people are killed every day in road accidents. This gives maximum scores for severity and likelihood, yet we all accept it.

(ref http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...hern_ireland/1592315.stm)

I think you need to be very careful about what the worst case scenario really is. The thought of black holes being formed sounds serious to me, but that is purely based on the science fiction novels I have read. I am not sure that is a fair reflection of the true risk.

I agree the risks need to be considered objectively, but am not sure we are anywhere near to that assessment yet.
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#12 Posted : 11 February 2008 09:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
But let us be realistic. We all know there are black holes everywhere. They gobble up all the pens when you need one and deposit them somewhere else in the alternative quantum universe. At a later time a pen re-appears where we last looked, this has arrived from one of the alternative universes.

I think we need to link this with the Tesco bag thread and use the black holes created to remove from our universe these people who cannot see the dissonance between telling children not to put bags on their head and putting bags on their heads as rain hats. Problem is that alternative universes will be restoring the balance with their reject headmasters etc.

One final thought is that if several mini black holes appear will they swallow each other up to create a white hole which continuously emits matter thus making the earth ever larger? After all to negative entities do make a positive one!

Bob
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#13 Posted : 11 February 2008 09:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Petrie
Read the HSE Document R2P2 - 'Reducing Risks and Protecting People' which is based on their original publications 'Assessing the Risks from Nuclear Power Stations'

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#14 Posted : 11 February 2008 10:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
Why "In the normal workplace Risk Assessment, a Severity of 5 means the death of one person."? Many scenarios could result in the death of more than 1 person. "My" 5 certainly allows for this, it is all proportionate.
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#15 Posted : 11 February 2008 13:58:00(UTC)
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Posted By akm
If everything's destroyed then there will be nothing and everyone knows that liklihood x a severity of nothing = nothing. Therefore risk is insignificant; carry on regardless!
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#16 Posted : 11 February 2008 14:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Garry Adams
The manufacture of black holes may not necessarily herald the destruction of Mankind, on the contrary it may be a saving grace.

Matter cannot be destroyed it mearly manifests its self into what ever permutation is required to serve its purpose.

Therefore destruction is not part of the equation, matter is transported via the black hole to occupy an mirror realm.



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#17 Posted : 11 February 2008 16:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By The toecap
I am sorry but i couldn't concentrate long enough to read it.
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#18 Posted : 11 February 2008 16:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
TC

Don't worry it goes soemthing like

If it takes a week to walk a fortnight in ten days, how long does it take an eel with all of its legs tied to swim through a barrel of treacle. Well the answer is at least as comprehensible - Four Apple Oranges.

Heck the improbability drive has engaged and I am in danger of talking sense which has to be highly improbable when dealing with this subject. It is as bad as the single quanta of energy going through two slits at the same time and interfering with itself on the other side. Or the fact that a single quantum of energy on one side of the universe knows exactly what another quanta is doing on the opposite side of the universe as it happens - ie faster than the speed of light, in fact instantaneously.

My head is hurting

Bob
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#19 Posted : 11 February 2008 16:48:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mitch
Does it matter? When scientists are already working for the extinction of the human race, I refer to cloning and the increasing speed of evolution this will bring, who did a risk assessment for that?
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#20 Posted : 11 February 2008 16:59:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Societal breakdown will destroy us and our civilisation long before science and technology ever does.
I'll get my coat.
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#21 Posted : 11 February 2008 17:02:00(UTC)
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Posted By holmezy
I've been tempted to comment all day, but held back until now....

There's nothing wrong with having a really risky ie multipal death factor of above 5, say 6 fo arguments sake.
Afterall, when Spinal Tap wanted more volume than was available at 10, they went to 11. So its all ok with me!!

Holmezy


Soon be much needed beer time!!
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#22 Posted : 11 February 2008 17:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By IOSH Moderator
Rod,

I doubt if we have many safety practitioners online that specialise in particle physics and can answer your question.

However, information on the website below suggests that a risk assessment has been completed, just not put in the public domain using a 5 x 5 matrix.

See:

http://public.web.cern.c...ic/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

It also provides links to several research papers on the issue you have raised, so it would be wrong to say that no risk assessment has been done - it has been and is in the public domain (well I found it with help anyway).

As far as your risk matrix is concerned, those that I have seen rate multiple fatalities as a 5. Using this scenario, the highest rating you could possibly get is 25.

All this really shows are the limitations of this kind of risk assessment and is discussed here:

http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...iew&forum=1&thread=27541

As the thread has somewhat deviated off topic, it has now been locked.

Regards

Jonathan Breeze
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