Posted By Chris Packham
Mitch

Weren't they German workers? They have a different approach to us. I have been in a warehouse in an otherwise extremely well run factory in Germany where FLTs were in evidence, large pallets and heavy loads present, and FLT drivers wearing open toed sandals.

Response to my comment was (a) we have never had an accident and (b) and they are sitting on the truck anyway so they are not at risk.

On the other hand, the way they handled chemicals would put many UK operations to shame.

It is all a question of perspective and culture, I think.

Chris

Posted By holmezy

Mitch / Chris

Think you're spot on, its all about the culture and the perception of risk. I once spoke with a German Factory manager who was amazed at all the rules, sign etc we had in our factories. His explanation was that in Germany when we tell workers not to do something, ie not to put your fingers in the machine, they don't. Dont need any signs or guards, they don't do it because they have been told not to, whereas you tell an British worker not to put their fingers in, put signs up and guards, and he will put them in to see what happens!
I thought it was a bit of a strange analogy until I thought about it,,,,and he was probably right.
Next time you are in the local chip shop, see how many people touch the heated displays to see, despite the sign saying "caution hot surface", just how hot hey really are.

Holmezy

Posted By Mitch
Holmezy,

How right you are, I work for a German company!!!

Posted By Barry Cooper
Our company have two mills in Germany, and their machines have no guards whatsoever, and our UK mill machinery is fully guarded. Our accident rates are about the same, but when we have an accident, it is a sprained ankle, strained shoulder, banged head etc, when they have an accident is is broken fingers, arms, bodies etc.

I know which types of accident I would prefer, if I did have any.

Barry

Posted By holmezy

The office boy and the secretary working in Germany have possibly been told not to go into the workshop area, as so they don't? I don't know.... but I still think that its a culture issue in general, rather than a singular personal attitude. The Brits, and English inparticular, seem to have to prove to themselves that it will hurt them before they believe what the sign says.
I don't think my previous comments were negative, anti German or any other type of offence. Its a cultural difference between different nationalities, but not necesarily individuals.
Of course, there are always exceptions and I am probably generalising on a large scale....but its still culture, which is made up of individual attitudes?

Holmezy

Soon be beertime.

Posted By Glyn Atkinson
If this programme is the same one I have seen before, the German boss also apologised for the delivery trucks from their home factory arriving four minutes late, after a 30 hour journey, and ripping off an entire wall of tiles as one was out of line in a run of over 100.

The guys may not have worn high viz, but looked very professional with safety factors built into their approach, especially at height, moving smoothly from one phase of work to the next one.

Posted By Ian Mitchell
I like Grand Designs (maybe one day I'll have a pad worthy of inclusion!).

However, some of the programmes are shocking H&S wise. Remember that beautiful but crumbly old castle that was falling apart whilst they were inside it anybody??!

It was a scheduled ancient monument too, for anybody who thought listed building consent was a nightmare to work with!

Posted By Pete48
There is some interesting accident data for Europe at this link including harmonisation issues. http://www.hse.gov.uk/st.../european/background.htm

A quick look might suggest that because the historical rates in the UK are better than the rest of Europe then we must know best. However, we know, for example, that most accept there is believed to be huge under reporting of RIDDOR in the UK. How much of a factor is this when making comparisons.

In my experience we all have lessons to learn about the way different countries within Europe approach and manage H&S. There will be differences for all sorts of reasons that have more to do with the working environment, (-2c in Scotland or +35C in Southern Europe)local laws, educational standards, management styles, individual expectations, social security systems and so on. Much more complex than perceived "cultural" responses.

The one behavioural aspect that I have noted in many other countries is the level of acceptance, at workplace level, of personal responsibility for ones own safety which is often much higher than is found in the UK. Whether this arises from the need to protect oneself because an employer hasn't or whether it is an important aspect of managing workplace safety that we have lost in the UK is perhaps an interesting debate.
Is this difference really because we in the UK have moved to a better place or just that we default to the "control and command" rather than "guide and support" approach.
The "one size fits all", "keep it simple" approaches are very common in the UK.

To take the example of personal visibility clothing quoted earlier in the thread. Exactly why was it needed for this project? How much would its use have reduced the risk to the individuals? Remember this was a one off project for a domestic client and the only other trade I saw was the crane driver. And that was an impressive example of good team work as well. I am sure the late arrival was outwith his direct control. Frustratingly too common in the UK?

I, like many others, have been surprised at the different interpretations of machinery guarding but to suggest that it is any more common than one might find in many UK workplaces is to overstate the differences.

I don't offer these comments as anything other than a personal opinion and to prompt further thought about how we move to closer harmonisation across Europe.