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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Sorry to bring the subject up again...I understand we have debated this to death but I need some professional(legal) advice.
I have now produced a certificate and audited our system which passed with flying colours surprise surprise. I now want to officially audit a couple of our sub contractors and issue them with the same certificate, which basically states that they are compliant with the standard in terms of their Health & Safety management system.
As I am not going to charge them a fee am I breaking any law at all?
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Posted By Barrie (Badger) Etter
Tony
As you are auditing them along the lines like we would for quality on one of our suppliers I'd say no you're not breaking the law.
Badger
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
However if they were to use this certificate as evidence of meeting OHSAS to other than yourself the situation is less clear cut. No law has been broken but contractually there could be information regarded as false. It is recognised third party auditors who certify independently who verify the standard is met and issue a certificate within their UKASS accreditation.
It can be a close judgment call whether deception is intended.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
wrong
there is no UKAS accreditation
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Posted By water67.
Hi, Have you thought about using an "approved contractor" system. You can have a list of companies/subbies. If they are on it, means you are happy with all aspects of their work including H&S but you are not issuing any certification.
Cheers.
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Posted By Arran Linton - Smith
Tony,
There is accreditation for OHSAS 18001 and I strongly suspect that your employer's PI insurance does not cover OHSAS 18001 certification.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
You will note I talked of the UKASS accreditation of the auditors not the OHSAS per se. Having said that there is accreditation possible for the new BS and some 3rd party auditors now offer this choice.
If you want to certify your own contractors that is fine but do not expect others to accept your audit. As a pure matter of PI I would not seek to do this. I do however audit others to the system both prior to accreditation and as part of their own self auditing process.
Bob
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Posted By Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
Robert
Thanks for your comments. However I am not too sure how PI can be considered, there is no competence issue attached to OHSAS and in fact we recently sent one of our quality guys on an audit course, which effectively proves his ability as it was UKAS accredited. I refer to my previous question about breaking any law in relation to certifying a management system. As I stated previously, a company that was not UKAS accredited wanted to audit our company for 5 grand with a peromise that we would pass the audit. What is more the Company concerned are very well known and admit that they have no desire to be UKAS accredited.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Tony abc jprhdnMurphy
More fool them. But please do not confuse the issues. I am a long standing IRCA auditor to 14001 and 18001 with a degree of 9001 experience. I am not however employed by a third party audit company and so would not "certify" to the management system in any form other than as a Gap analysis or part of the internal verification process of an organisation.
You are most welcome to verify the compliance of your subcontractors to a particular standard but this will not certify them as compliant to the management standard in terms of their relationships to other than yourself.
Bob
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Posted By David Balkwell
Tony
I don't understand what you mean by UKAS Accredited Training............UKAS Don't accredit training courses
"recently sent one of our quality guys on an audit course, which effectively proves his ability as it was UKAS accredited"
On the legality of the issue of Certificates - I would tread very carefully - A bit like the old Fire Certificate and the premises burn down, the issue of the fire authority having recently visited and said the premises was ok - Forget the random sample and snapshot in time - in defence people use whatever they have available to defend themselves - So if your certificate is available who knows it might be the auditor will get called to provide evidence in a Corporate Manslaughter Case - I suggest your Audit/Auditor experience, reporting and review is robust.
Just while we are on the point of UKAS Tony - little is said about the fact that there are alternative Accreditation Bodies that Certification Bodies use for all Management Systems Accreditation including OHSAS18001:1999 & BS OHSAS18001:2007
For example http://www.rva.nl/home/
Highly credible UK Operating Certification Bodies use UKAS and RvA (ie RvA for H&S Accreditation) - There is nothing wrong with using official alternative country Accreditiation Bodies and great lengths are gone to, ensuring the Certification Bodies and Auditors meet those (and continue to meet those) high RvA expections
Regards
David Balkwell - QMS EMS H&SS Lead Auditor
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
David
I think John has issues that we cannot resolve over OHSAS. My problem with his propositions are however with the qualifications that an auditor will offer in order to underake an assessment to a managment standard. Where an individual is not a Chartered member and is not already an experienced auditor, or at least supported by other experienced auditors, there are major dangers professionally for one's reputation.
Even a CMIOSH and experienceed auditor should be wary about making statements concerning compliance with standards where these may be used as part of a company's Competency Response.
Bob
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Posted By David Balkwell
Bob
I agree totally with you
David Balkwell
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