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Posted By Ted
Sorry to bring up this subject again but i am still uncertain of a viable solution to the subject of charging for lost PPE, mainly Gloves.
It seems quite common place for our employees to loose gloves. Each employee as a locker. The reserved wisdom is to use disciplinary procedures to change the employees behaviour; personally these procedures have a negative impact and also the admin cost under current legislation is large. One contributor as previously stated that under H&S law there is nothing to stop an employee making a contribution to costs if they have failed to maintain employee responsibility under The HSAWA. Any Views would be welcomed
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Posted By Dave Wilson
You cannot charge ANY employee for PPE issued to him even if he loses it - you must replace.
However if he keeps losing it then this is an HR issue and NOT a safety issue
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dave,
I beg to differ. HSWA 74, S9 states "No employer shall levy or permit to be levied on any employee of his any charge in respect of anything done or provided in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions."
This means that if your risk assessment requires you to provide PPE you must provide it and maintain in a good state of repair, etc free of charge.
However, if a person loses their PPE you are replacing it because of neglect and not in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions. Therefore you can charge for it.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By RP
Most employers would replace free of charge, but I would endorse the comment and reference given above.
i have heard of some employers charging for the lost item and the replacement...
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Posted By johnwaterson2773
I had a similar problem but it involved safety glasses. At the time I was new into the civilian world, coming from the Forces, so if an individual lost or abused kit then you were charged for it and I thought and still do that the individual should be expected to replace.
It's all well and good for the company to keep replacing but at the end of the day they are losing money.
I put a plastic shopping bag in each van and asked the teams to place their own kit, gloves, hats & glasses in their. It took a while but it worked.
Time and perserverance ( spelt wrong I think), but it was a learning process for me as well, people expect everything for nothing and they know what the company has to give them.
Or a quiet chat one to one could assist as well!!
John
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Posted By Homer
The phrase negelect is spot on and an employer could then charge.
However I think it's back to a case by case basisand an HR issue.
If someones loses a pair of gloves, for example, well the cost would be insignificant and they should be replaced. I would suggest also that the courts would not look kindly on an accident where a cheap pair of gloves could have prevented it, if however we are talking pair after pair then it is neglect.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Adrian,
Where does it say in any H&S legislation that you can charge for PPE if its lost? as its a new one on me?
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Posted By John P W
This can be a tricky area as the employer has a duty to supply PPE as required following a risk assessment, or because it is a Client requirement. Therefore if it is lost the employer has a duty to resupply PPE to ensure the continued safety of the end user.
Although I tend to agree with the majority relating to neglect, unless it is a habitual loser of PPE it would only create ill feeling and enforce the 'Elf n Safety Taliban' feelings towards our profession to say 'lost gloves - that will be $2.69 + VAT, please'(sorry no pound sign).
If there is a bonus scheme, relate the lost PPE to and keep a running total on a main notice board and deduct the total from any bonus payments across the board. That way the more conscientious employees amongst the workforce may do a little bit of self policing and the loss rate may come down a bit.
Something I have seen recently are belt clips for gloves so employees can hang them on there rather than filling their pockets with them and losing them when looking for something else.
Failing that send the guilty to HR.
No doubt they will then say their PPE was stolen!!
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Posted By Adrian Watson
Dave,
Conversely what does the law say. It says as stated above that you cannot charge for anything provided in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions
If you are providing it because somebody has lost it, then you are not providing it in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions, you are providing it because of the neglect of the individual. Because of this you are not prohibited from charging for the item if you so wish.
I personally wouldn't normally charge for a pair of gloves.
Regards Adrian
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Posted By Halesowen (going to Wembley) Baggie
Adrian,
If my company were to charge me for PPE that id lost. I would be straight to tribunal, let them see how they would interpret the law.
Have you any case law with regard to your 'neglect' theory?
What if a person through 'neglect' breaks a piece of PPE that costs more than his weekly wage?
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Posted By Dave Wilson
Adrian,
Thats got to be the biggest load of legal speak ever me old mate.
You are still providing PPE to guard against foreseeable risks or legally required mate, why the person does not have it is immaterial, they don't have it!! and the employer is duty bound to supply FOC.
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Posted By Mitch
I agree with Dave, responsibility to supply is with the employer H&S care of equipment is with employee HR
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Posted By John J
What happened to the duty to look after equipment provided for safety?
As an employer you are required to provide PPE and ensure suitable provisions are made to store and maintain it.
As an employee you have a duty to look after it and report any damage. Loss is not damage.
No employer should be expected to constantly replace lost PPE.
I'd suggest you include gloves in your PPE register. It will allow you to track usage and identify problems such as suitability and mis-use/loss.
If you look at this from a business perspective its unsustainable. Would you tolerate the guy losing his tools every other day?
John
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Posted By Dave Wilson
John,
I agree wholeheartedly however thats what the whole discussion is about.
Employers are legally required to provide PPE FOC, if it is being constantly having to be replaced due to lack of care by an employee then its an HR issue and the reasons why rests with them, also any subsequent action which may ensue is their remit.
The employer still has to supply PPE if its required.
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Posted By Pete Longworth
The company cannot charge and neglect has nothing to do with it. If an employee loses his PPE it must be replaced or the employee re-located. The company can pursue that matter through HR but the fact remains if PPE is specified for a particular job then the company have to ensure that it is provided free of charge. Where a charge can be made is when suitable PPE is provided but an employee decides he / she would like an a more expensive alternative eg a company may provide a range of footwear with some alternatives more expensive, but all of which are suitable. The company then can say that if employees want the more expensive pair they may have to make a small contribution to the difference in cost.
Other than that frankly I am surprised that "H&S professionals " could suggest there were other circumstances where a company could charge an employee for PPE especially linking it to so called neglect.
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Posted By Halesowen (going to Wembley) Baggie
Im with you Pete, Dave,
Whats worrying is that people who are not H&S professionals will be reading some comments and justifying charging for PPE!
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Posted By John J
Dave,
Agreed. But statements that say ' I would be straight to a tribunal' indicate that there is no responsibility on the user.
We are not talking about a single loss or accidental damage but a sustained habit pattern in which the individual accepts no responsibility for his actions.
I agree the disciplinary is a HR issue but it needs to be made clear that there are consequences for failure to look after this equipment. If this is made clear early on its likely not to get to the disciplinary stage at all.
Some of the posts read as 'just accept it and carry on'.
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Posted By Pete Longworth
Where has it been said "just accept it and carry on". Almost every post has said that the matter should be pursued through HR. If a company is not prepared to do that then that is their look out. What they cannot do is make an illegal deduction from wages by charging for PPE and that is pretty much end of story.
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Posted By Dave Wilson
John,
That's the whole point mate
Employers have a duty to supply and maintain etc etc FOC
Employees have a duty to wear or use or whatever (after training etc etc)
I really don't get that an employer is 'Not supplying as its not a statutory provison to replace lost PPE' that's way out there!
I didn't give him gloves coz he lost the original pair! try that one with the HSE then!
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Posted By Halesowen (going to Wembley) Baggie
Of course theres responsibility on the user section 7 & 8 HSAW Act.
But if employees are continually losing PPE that is a conduct code issue.
The 'tribunal' comment was used to highlight that charging for PPE is wrong.
Interestingly nobody has come up with any case law with regard to the 'neglect' issue!
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Posted By John J
Ok I accept I was on the wrong track. Busy morning looking at PPE issues.
It is not acceptable to levy a charge but neither should this type of behaviour be accepted.
John
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Posted By Pete Longworth
Fair play John J
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Posted By 247hero
Personally, I'd replace the PPE whenever necessary, but a PPE log would identify carelessness by the employee, and eventually I'd be asking HR to get involved with regards to possible disciplinary. Accept that you must replace it for free, but the employee must understand the seriousness of looking after it.
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Posted By Mitch
Now where are those stairs!
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