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Posted By Stuie
Some advice from my learned fellow members if I may be so bold please?
We have some seasonal temp' east European employees (usually for about 4/5 months at a time), they bring with them (we ask for FLT drivers) a FLT licence from their home country.
My question is this - do we need to carry out further checks (if so what would you suggest) or are we OK to rely upon this as being suitable and sufficient?
As yet I have had no response from same question to RTITB.
Many thanks in anticipation.
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Posted By MP
Their local license is OK I guess, we don't ask them to sit a UK driving test to be on the Queens Highway do we..?
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Posted By Paul Leadbetter
No, but should we verify that the licence is genuine?
Paul
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Posted By Kevin Eves
Stuie
If you take a look on the R.T.I.T.B web site under industry issues, the top article is related to your question.
If you can get a look at the L117 ACOP Rider operated trucks this may also help.
Call on 01733 893676 if you want to talk about this issue.
Kevin
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Posted By DaveCole
Stuie,
As with any new f.l.t driver you should carry out an assessment of their ability to drive in your environment. They may need familiarisation with your particular make and model. They may not have used a machine as new (or old as yours before) A company should give written authorisation for employees to use their plant and you want to be sure you are not authorising unsuitable drivers. As for whether the licences from Eastern Europe are valid, I asked the RTITB the same question some time ago and was told I should always re-test where possible. ( Maybe the employment agency you use could help with that?)
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Posted By jayjay
Stuie
If you've got your own in-house instructor you can get him/her to give the operator a 20 minute assessment to see if they operate the truck to our standards, if not get an external company to do it. It will stick out a mile if they've not been trained and don't rely on the old chestnut of 'But i've got a license'. How do you know that training company exist abroad and if the accreditation is to the standard of ITSSAR,RTITB etc. I can buy a license off the internet for any bit of plant tomorrow if i looked hard enough. Thats made me think ?? I could change jobs and be an excavator driver next week. Right off to to look at the internet. No seriously though don't forget you've employed them so you've got a responsibilty to ensure they're competent and trained so for peace of mind get them assessed.
Regards, JJ
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Posted By David Bannister
Before operating killer equipment on my site I would want to know that all operators are familiar with my machinery, familiar with my site and can operate my machinery in a safe way. A piece of paper written by somebody else in Tamil, Hungarian, Flemish, Welsh or English would not be sufficient to guarantee that to me.
The public roads issue is one of social convenience, not a reflection of H&S needs.
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Posted By Phil Errup
Without meaning to sound rude, mp, are you at all involved with safety or health? I cannot fathom out why you would post such an answer. Which made me ask myself, why are you reading a health and safety forum? If it is because you are involved with safety, then please please research some more before making any decisions, or before giving anybody any advice of any kind. If you are not, then welcome to one of the best resources on the internet.
Moderators, I ask the question, with so many of you reading these posts, would it not be wise, or responsible to hide such replies, as you do if it breaches the AUG's. As it is a free market for questions, those posting may assume that those who reply may all know what they are talking about, read an answer such as above, and act upon it.
Of course I know a mod may not yet have read this particular thread, but I'd still be interested to know the answer.
Regards
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Posted By Penfold
As a qualified and experienced FLT instructor, I treat European certificates with about as much respect as most UK ones (not worth the paper they are written on)
As the employer, you must ensure you they are "trained and competent" to work in your own environment which may differ vastly from where they have worked before (specific job training)
Look at the certificate, yes, but most importantly, look at the driving and update skills where necessary. Have you access to a qualified instructor?
Pen
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Posted By Penfold
PS
There is no such thing as an FLT "Licence", only a "certificate of training" (as per ACOP)
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Posted By Phil Errup
apologies MP if I seemed a bit hasty with my last response. In previous employment I investigated an accident on one of out busiest sites that involved a flt driver who pinned a colleague against the racking,. Only by the grace of God was the injured man not permanently damaged or worse. The driver was polish, had a certificate that he explained took him 2 days to achieve, which incidentally was 3 weeks before he came to work for us in the UK. So no. I strongly disagree that we can accept having a foreign license is enough to guarantee they will not kill someone. On assessing this particular driver, he was hopeless. And as a result the manager who allowed him to operate was disciplined.
With regards to the highways, that would be almost impossible to manage. I have lost count of the amount of times my horn has saved me from being squashed by a foreign lorry driver who wants to move into my lane whether he can see who's on his right or not. My point being his license does not mean he/she should just be allowed to plough along the roads I and my family travel every day.
In a place of work, we have to physically hand them the keys before they can operate our machinery. So therefore we have the ability, and the responsibility to ensure they are safe to operate and their colleagues health and safety is not at risk.
Appreciate this sounds like a rant, but it's not meant to be, it's just an issue close to my heart from seeing the injuries caused.
Regards
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Posted By MP
To Mr Errup,
Yes Phil I am involved in H&S (CMIOSH and a DGSA with 20 years in high hazard COMAH environment)
My post was deliberately brief and contentious to stimulate debate. It has worked. I would not have expected your response though. However, thank you for the last post.
You cannot have failed to notice the huge increase in the number of non UK trucks (all with LH drive) on the roads.
My point is we accept their country driving licence with no measure of competance assessment or validation. They are capable of (and do) causing far more harm than any FLT driver.
I too have investigated many serious FLT related injuries, all of them involving competant, qualified, three year refreshered drivers - so a ticket is not always a guarantee of "competance"
I sometimes think that as a profession we spend too much time on certain "cosy" topics to the exclusion of many bigger issues.
Have a good weekend all
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Posted By jayjay
Gents !
The original question was regarding Forklift trucks and the drivers competencies as he is from another country. Where the hell did driving lorries on the road come from ? Come on ! Answer the question as its asked. I'm was just waiting for someone to come on the forum and ask about foreign pilots !! We sometimes seem to go off on a tangent on some of these questions and maybe start to confuse those lesser mortals who are not as knowledged as us.
Regards, JJ
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Posted By Phil Errup
Stuie appologies. To answer your question, I would definately say no. You need to assess them or have them assessed before you allow them to operate. I had a meeting with an EHO last week who told me the HSE's next offensive will be FLT's. How we assess drivers, agency drivers etc , and the companies that offer training. So get stringent procedures in place now is my advice.
MP you are right, your response did work so I applaud you for that. My concern was that Stuie asked a straight forward question, and you answered knowing it would spark a debate, yet the original question was not to determine, but to find the answer to a straight forward question. And as I now know your experience, understand why you did so. However, if I posted a question because I had general concerns regarding a certain subject, I would not want to spark a debate if the issue is straight forward, as it would just leave me not knowing what to do. Whereas if the answers from those that know all have the same idea, I would be happy to go on the advice given.
Whilst I agree with what you are saying, I believe that the clear answer should still sometimes be given.
No, a piece of paper does not prove competency no matter where they are from, or however long they have held it hence my answer (and entrance into the planned "debate").
I'm sorry, if I offended MP, too often topics are turned into debates when a straight forward answer would suffice. When the answer is a matter of interpretation or confusion, ie RIDDOR or CDM, then I wholeheartedly agree that a debate is always going to arise. But when questions that are of best practice, or straight forward bread and butter scenarios I do not believe it helps the (possibly inexperienced) poster make the right decision. Sorry, but again that's something else we can always debate?
Regards
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Posted By willhiem
Jay,
I was seriously worried that time the american astronauts went to space with the kosmonauts!! there were massive differences in their training!! i'd liked to have seen those risk assessments from MIR!
FLT's i'm not too familiar with but i do know from a few teleporter drivers we had that we made a couple of guys from "out foreign" get the same everyone else, we didnt know what the course entailed and it was a good way of getting them orientated into how things are run on sites here in terms of driving machinery etc.
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Posted By Sean Warburton
Yes Stuie, you need to assess and at least provide a refresher training session, all sites and most FLT's are different, and as an early post said the term licence is perhaps incorrect. Although even i call it that to avoid confusion at times, it's just a cart of training, as with many other bits of work equipment. Hey you guys, it's Friday, a lovely day too, chill out :)
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Posted By Stuie
Thanks very much for the suggestions and feedback folks.
Just to let you know we do have all of the drivers by assessed by a UK accredited organisation to check that there is competence ability and understanding (AFARP).
I was asked if we could stop doing this as a way of reducing costs (isn't it always the same?) - I said no but wanted to check that I was correct in making this judgement.
Thanks again - enjoy the weekend :-)
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Posted By Pete Longworth
"My post was deliberately brief and contentious to stimulate debate."
What's wrong with just giving a straight answer to a straight question?
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Posted By MP
Pete
Nothing at all my friend.
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Posted By GeoffB4
My, my, don't we have some sensitive souls on board.
Come on guys, grow up.
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