Posted By Jewel Roberts I am currently pursuing a Nebosh Diploma in OSH, and have been asked by my supervisor to complete all accident reports and arrangements for medical attention (at public and or private facilities) within the department. Recently, a middle manager locked his office and car keys inside his office, and decided to climb over a dividing wall bewteen his office an the kitchenette to retrieve said keys, instead of call the Facility Management Personell to open the door. Upon climbing up a ladder to remove the ceiling tiles to gain entry into the office, he slipped, fell and badly damaged his left hand. I did not receive information on the circumstances leading up to the accident until two days after the incident. On the day in question I received word that he was injured on the Plant (Water Treatment Plant) and needed emergency attention. Given the state of the local free hospitals, the Area Supply Manager decided to refer him to a private facility. The problem: I want to recommend that since his injury was caused by the employee, the company should be made to incur this cost. The employee should be made to cover the charges and discilpinary action taken against him, since he is a manager and should lead by example. How will his subordinates treat with his actions? Please post any suggestions regarding how this situation should be handled?

Posted By Antony McManus Jewel, I couldn't agree with Eliza more. Its about time common sense prevailed in our industry. Lets be honest, it wouldn't matter how much investigation was carried out....the root cause was that he was stupid!!!! Agree with Eliza on the A&E route also. Tony Mc

Posted By David Gault I hate to disagree with previous posts as I prefer common sense approaches, but ....I do disagree. If you fail to discipline the person involved it may come back to bite you. If you ever make it as far as court you have to show that you take H&S seriously and are willing to point out the persons failings. Disciplinary doesn't necessarily mean sacking, just document the slap on the wrist. Don't leave yourself open to criticism from official sources for being soft on H&S. Obviously you will leave yourself open to unofficial sources moaning about H&S overkill but that is the lesser of two evils.

Posted By Raymond Rapp I have always taken the view that safety and disciplinary measures should be separate. In other words, look at the cirmcumstances of the incident and controls need to avoid a repetition. Then let others decide if there are any grounds for a behavoural change through discipline. Ray

Posted By Chris Packham I remember many years ago when I was discussing guarding arrangements on a piece of machinery with the design engineer (and this predates the Health and Safety at Work Act) his saying to me: "You know, with a lot of effort we can make a machine fool proof. However hard we try we can never make it b****y idiot proof!" Has anything changed in the last 40 years? Chris

Posted By Ian Waldram Lots of challenges in this area, as others have pointed out. One issue is clear though, the investigation should be completed before any disciplinary action is initiated, and though that may be linked to the investigation, it must follow the normal route, i.e. by line management, not the investigator(s). This area is covered briefly in the IOSH Guide to major incident investigation 'Learning the Lessons' (available from 'information centre' to the left) - even though this incident isn't major, I suggest that the same principles apply.

Posted By Tabs Jewel, I would say that as the decision to take him to private care was a corporate one, the company should pay unless there was clear deception (you mention being told it was a plant injury - was the area manager aware of the true situation, or a cover-up?). I guess that by the way you describe the hospitals that it happened outside the uk (just the reference to "free" rather than NHS). Tony - get rid of the 17 year old and I would expect him to get a lawyer and go to tribunal. Where was the effective supervision? "Being told" is not enough, really not enough, especially around presses. Who let him take the pedal inside the guard? Who designed the pedal/guard to physically allow such? A minefield there Tony I think, the paperwork is the least of your problems.

Posted By Raymond Rapp With respect I do not think it is a case of understanding safety law, we can all read acts and regulations, it is understanding how they are applied in the real world, which appears to be sadly lacking in this case. Normally the regulators only take formal action against the most serious risk takers for obvious reasons. A sense of perspective is required. The manager for some odd reason decided to put only himself at risk and no doubt feels a complete idiot for doing it. A few quite words is in order by his line manager - job done. Meanwhile, what was the root cause...!?

Posted By lisa mccaulder p.s. would it be facetious, even jokingly, to suggest that the root cause may be a poor diciplinary policy that leads employees to feel as though they don't have to take safety rules seriously sorry, couldn't resist, I have no evidene to support that!!

Posted By DAVID STUBBS Reference the comment by Amandac. Some sort of disciplinary action, even informal but recorded, should be taken. As mentioned Managers should lead by example but what example did this Manager show and what respect will he get from his own staff when he next chairs a health and safety meeting or carries out health and safety training in his department?

Posted By John Richards "Given the state of the local free hospitals, the Area Supply Manager decided to refer him to a private facility" And yet recent figures show that the risk is equal in both private and public health facilities.

Posted By Tabs John, figures for which country? I doubt that statement is true for all countries and we don't know where this happened yet :-) Of course it may have been here in UK, but ...

Posted By jervis S.lao on the wrist send him the bill !