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#1 Posted : 04 September 2008 09:44:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Have a look at the following press release on the HSE wwebsite.

Demolition company fined £15,000 after electrician seriously injured in five metre fall in Greenwich

Among the text is clearly a paragraph relating to a.n.other press release totally unrelated to the accident and prosecution being described.

My question is therefore concerned with what is happening to the HSC/HSE.

The moves to Bootle and the other PR issues concerned with the F10 and other matters paint a worrying picture of an organisation about to fall apart. FOD seem to be outside the collapse presently but it bodes ill if the Policy division problems cause inspection and enforcement to fail.

Bob
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#2 Posted : 04 September 2008 14:25:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ian G Hutchings
I can only speak from recent experience in three different situations with different inspectors. I found that the application of notices and standards varied widely between individuals. One being possibly over zealous with notices and misunderstanding the risks related to a task. One other inspector not issuing a notice when there are serious dangers to employees working on open packaging machines with no physical guards or access prevention controls. In another situation an inspector entering into a detailed issue via email with a potential defendent.

Perhaps this is a sign at the coalface that all is not well at a policy and strategy level. I have worked with some excellent inspectors in the past who I looked up to for guidance and advice.

Are others noticing any operational changes?


Ian
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#3 Posted : 04 September 2008 14:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ron Hunter
On balance, I have to say there are still a lot of very good, approachable, helpful, pragmatic and knowledgable Inspectors out there - some young, some not so young. Perhaps less than there used to be though.

Given the sheer volume of information now on the HSE website (and let's face it there's a huge amount of very useful stuff that saves we practitioners hours of work?), perhaps not surprising the odd "whoopsy" will appear.

Don't get me started again on that virtual F10 debacle again though.....................
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#4 Posted : 04 September 2008 15:10:00(UTC)
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Posted By DPK
Differences are being noticed.

I like others have worked with some first class HSE inspectors, in the past i have dealt with them as advisor's first and enforcers second.

I recently had the pleasure of discussing welfare facilities on construction sites with a HSE inspector, one of his/her fisrt comments to me and my client was "i have put several improvement notices on building sites today for using chemical flush toilets" (strewth give me strenght, any of you tried to explain to a small building company that there is a hierachy of toilets)they look at you as if you have just walked at of a funny farm. That HSE inspector then duly sent through another improvement notice after going back to the office to consider the henious crime.

I say, Well done to that person because you have, instead of advising and offering information to help, turned them into another Health and Safety shy company that think the only communication with the HSE will end in enforcement.
Unfortunatley this affects those within the HSE that are excellent at what they do.

But calling them for advise or to visit clients in the future?
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#5 Posted : 04 September 2008 15:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Ron

No intention of that:-)

It just seems to me that the edge is being lost. In spite of all the complexities of their web site typos are rare. Full paragraph typos are as common as rocking horse manure. I think personally the strains are showing or perhaps there is too much reliance on external consultants/providers. I note that the releases are provided on behalf of the HSE.

Either way I am concerned that inspectors in the field do not fall victim to whatever is happening.

Bob
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#6 Posted : 04 September 2008 20:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By DJ
Bob,

Sadly I believe the HSE totally lost the plot about 10 years ago. Sad though it used to be a very good organisation.

DJ
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#7 Posted : 05 September 2008 09:33:00(UTC)
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Posted By db
Bob,
As you rightly said, it may not be HSE per se who are putting together these press reports - they use a government news agency - as do all the other gov departments but it goes out in their name. Was it that bad though? The idea behind these is to give people information about potential risks which they have done.

As for comments about individual cases I think people miss the point. The differences in enforcement may be down to differences in inspectors but not every situation is the same - even if the same breaches apply.

The comments above suggests that you prefer HSE to give advice first and yet there are many contradictions on this forum from people who say they don't enforce enough.

Is it right that the Inspector issued notices on welfare? Not for you to decide. There are many factors to take into account. The company involved could have had previous advice for example but usually a chemical toilet means no running water. I used to be a construction inspector and it's a good indicator of the overall h&s managment. To be honest, if a builder doesn't know that they need proper running water or if they can't plan a job to have proper toilets in the twenty first century then maybe they shouldn't be in the game.

There may be a large number of issues that people feel HSE deserves criticism for but banging on about individual Inspectors when you have little experience of enforcement - or the reasoning behind the decisions is unfair.
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#8 Posted : 05 September 2008 10:03:00(UTC)
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Posted By Dave Merchant
The point to remember is that the HSE is a government agency, and there's no reason why it should be any better than the others. Buried in the thousands of staff are many people who are passionate about what they do, and many who turn up for work to pinch some more pencils. I was briefly public-sector and it takes a lot of willpower to stay motivated when your budgets are decided by politics rather than performance.

At least it's currently doing well on the intergovernmental performance assessment scale of "how many laptops lost this month?"
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#9 Posted : 05 September 2008 10:46:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Or how much confidential data!:-)

I prefer not to go down the variability of performance issue except to say that half decent training and competence assessment would have ironed out much of the variance between views on much the same situation.

The term fluhing chemical toilets is a bit vague for me as well as it could imply either the recycling system without external water supply, or the connected septic tank type which I have used in many places where foul drain connection is a problem. One inspector could not, one time, grasp why we could not use the nearby drain - The term "surface water" seemed to be irrrelevant.

My real concern is this sense that one cannot rely on the veracity of information given and whether it is worded so badly to give a multiplicity of meanings. Perhaps the chaos over "by or on behalf of the client" in CDM07 is typical of the flip-flop of the HSE when interpreting the words when the courts had already defined the term effectively in other non H&S cases. After the strong defence of the necessity for the client to sign the Policy unit has now effectively, with the electronic F10, put the client a clear step remove from the notification process.

Bob
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#10 Posted : 05 September 2008 10:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
I note that the release has now been revised - did we have an effect?:-)

Bob
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#11 Posted : 05 September 2008 11:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By DPK
db

Unfair, my comments are most certainly not, as you say are there other contributory factors of which you are unaware?
I didnt want to right War and Peace just breifly explain.

Difference of opinions upon this forum regarding enforcement, well i think you will find, that is the whole idea of the forum and i am entitled to mine whether you were an inspector of constructions sites or not.

You are also unaware of my role as an inspector/enforcer regarding safety of any type.

I stand by my comments even if they were from another angle. As i said we are all entitled to an opinion.

And FYI the toilets had warm running water in them. Thank god its nearly all over for this week.
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#12 Posted : 05 September 2008 12:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Carl West
I think its a bit harsh to make a sweeping statement that the HSE have lost the plot

As you know, most organisations have good and bad points (and there are always people ready to point these out)

Most probably, the HSE are in a period of evolution and making changes.

Its easy to criticise and tell tales but lets not take it away from them what they have done and are trying to achieve

Carlos
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#13 Posted : 05 September 2008 12:36:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Carlos

As I remember it the Capt of the Titanic could not believe the ship was really about to sink until it was actually sinking. The warning signs do not detract from the work that the HSE has achieved, rather they warn that what has been gained could be lost so easily.

Bob
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#14 Posted : 05 September 2008 19:14:00(UTC)
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Posted By GeoffB4
Agree Carlos, and going by a number of his recent postings, Bob will be the first to admit he has a problem with the HSE.

I believe that in general they do a splendid job.

!!!DO YOU HEAR THAT MR INSPECTOR!!!
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#15 Posted : 05 September 2008 19:24:00(UTC)
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Geoff

But it is with sadness I feel that


Bob
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