Posted By Gerryrac I am interested to hear from anyone who are experiencing problems with self closing mechanisms on fire doors in the care home setting. Some managers I work with have raised concerns about the risk of residents being knocked over by doors with selfclosures because of their mobility. These managers would like to have doors without self closures. Any advice or solutions to these concerns will be much appreciated.Thnx Gerryrac

Posted By bill reilly Gerry Is this any help from bbc website? 10 residents died in this fire in Scotland.A Fatal Accident Inquiry is due this year. "Rosepark - Doors call in fire safety inquiry Care home bosses should identify which doors in their properties should be kept closed to avoid any spread of smoke and fire, according to a report. Chief Inspector of Fire Services, Jeff Ord, said: "A recent research report which will be published within the next few weeks confirms the importance of doors being kept closed to prevent the spread of smoke and fire. "A fire safety risk assessment undertaken by the owner/occupier of a residential care home will identify those doors which should be kept closed. "Automatic self-closing devices should normally be fitted to these doors." He added: "The choice of self closer type is important since some are not appropriate in a care home for older people or people with disabilities and advice should be sought from the local fire and rescue service." He said that some residents would be more agreeable to having their doors closed at night if they knew help was easily at hand should they need it. Jacquie Roberts, the chief executive of the Care Commission, said every resident should have a personal care plan which balances care and support needs with other priorities including safety. She said: "The views of the individual and their carers should be taken into account when the personal plan is developed. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go.../hi/scotland/4215317.stm Services | Projects | Case Studies | Training | News & Updates | Links | Contact | Location | Home Copyright © 2007 THERMATECH FIRE CONSULTANTS LIMITED - design by FREEFLOW

Posted By SBH Link them to the alarm system and they will fail to save only when the alarm goes off. This of course would not apply at night or to high risk areas, where they should be closed.

Posted By water67. Hi your fire risk assessment will probably indicate the need for self closing doors. Magnetic held open are in my view the only option. They only close in an emergency or test drill. thus the chance of anyone being hit by them isn't in my view that high risk if compared to the possible smoke and fire spread through areas where doors are not closed. This was a major factor in the deaths at rosepark nursing home in scotland.. (13 deaths all caused by smoke inhalation). You will find the fire service will be very unhappy about doors not being self closing.. you will also find the guidance for the new fire regs clearly indicate self closing doors must be in place in residential care (this is the case under the fire Scotland act) I assume England and wales will be the same. I understand the care issues re your managers. But I think it is much more a perceived risk than a real one.. and at the end of the day the balance of risks viz your FRA must come down on the need for self closures. Cheers.

Posted By Gerryrac Hi, John Many thanx for your very good feedback. Everyone's assistance has been much appreciated. Gerry

Posted By Fornhelper Risscorp, Sound advice provided however there is one point you raised that has caused me some concern. You state that: "Fire hazard rooms: kitchen - laundry - smoking rooms - boiler rooms. All these rooms must be fitted with a self-closing device not linked to the power supply or the AFD, therefore, they should be kept closed at all times" From my reading of the guidance for residential care homes (Scotland) bedrooms are also classified as fire hazard rooms. We have recently upgraded all our bedrooms to 'self close' when the alarm sounds but have also included laundry and kitchen doors on this system (staff found the working conditions uncomfortable at certain times when doors were kept closed). I am concerned that you state that doors to fire hazard room should be kept closed at all times - if so this would include bedrooms - have I missed something in the guidance that distinguishes between particular types of 'fire hazard rooms'. If you could clarify this I would really appreciate it. Cheers FH

Posted By risccorp Hi FH I was only trying to raise some awareness to Gerry and allow him to gain a perspective on the different types of closers. You are right FH, Fire Hazard rooms are further classified under the guidance. However, from SHTM 84 where their classification was not complete and what constituted a fire hazard room to the extent they are now. additionally, where it also indicated that Swing Free Arms were required for all bedrooms doors as does now the Acoustic devices which I have mentioned. This all squares up when you do a "FIRE RISK" assessment and it has always, since 1984 been OK for swing free arms, for one major reason; they were fitted to bedroom doors for resident who are frail and elderly added support and freedom, - from having to open against self-closers – if using a Zimmer or Wheelchair free their hands to steady their mobility and move through the door easier - being able to see staff, other residents, etc., if they were bed bound - and the wear & tear on doors from wheelchairs etc. Remember the fire risk assessment will indicate where the risk are, e.g. Laundry and kitchens (these are real Fire Hazard Rooms "FHR" - perhaps there should have been a sub class of "FHR"), where it has been stated that staff find the environment uncomfortable (heat, etc) hence the reason that “THESE” doors must remain closed due to the ever threat of fire outbreak from a variety of sources in these areas (in fact - management should assess the change of AIR in these rooms and assess under H&S regs whether additional ventilation is required). Regards Renny Thomson, if he, like you had read the guide he may have extended his statement. Two passing final comments – the guides are not EXACT. If you read the whole document, which I am sure, you will have, look at the guides under evacuation.(this is just an example of some issues that I am not very happy with, there are others)Take them up with the authorities - NOT ME. 1. Most residents who are High dependency should be on the ground floor, homes do not have the luxury to have rooms for high dependency on the ground floor – in fact when doing PEEP’s most homes find that at least 85% are in the high dependency Category with others being assessed each 6 month period, why, because we all deteriorate and residents need further assessing. Remember most homes are set up as a care home and a business. 2. When an emergency evacuation occurs all persons including “others” should be involved in this. In taking this to the final conclusion “the Scottish Office” have said this means anyone who maybe in the Home at the time, are you ready for their answer to this (delivery drivers – Other Agencies not care staff – friend & relatives etc, etc.). Litigation is uppermost in my mind. Also, when you have horizontal evacuation all you are doing if residents are given assistance from other agencies is you compound your problems by increasing the amount of visitors in your horizontal evacuation to a safe area. They agreed it was not right and asked if I wanted it changed, of course I said yes, they said “it stays”. Anyway, I did not intend to get involved in discourse of Care Home Guides, I hope this gives some further clarification to you FH. As I said I entered this forum to give some information on Door Closers Types. John Clenaghan

Posted By Fornhelper Risccorp My apologies if I have upset you....just wanted a bit of clarification as I am sure you are aware that the enforcement approach from different fire authorities can vary significantly. We also commented on evac procedures / arrangements when the consultative document came out but no response and not sure what the point of the consultation was if you don't get any feedback but, look on the bright side, at least you got a response from the Scottish Office!! As you say it is down to the risk assessment. In our assessment we deem it to be acceptable to have the doors to kitchens / laundries held open if they close automatically when the fire alarm sounds. As a result of this staff no longer keep doors open using wedges / chairs etc (and as much as we tried, human nature being what it is, these type of practices were prevalent). With regard to ventilation - a bit 'off thread' but since you mention it - our employees are happy that the ventilation systems we already have in place are now enhanced by the doors being allowed to be kept open and I would suggest that having a door open that does not represent a risk in terms of client, staff or fire safety is as about as reasonably practicable as you can get. Thanks for your comments Cheers FH

Posted By risccorp Hi FH Never been upset in my life - so don't give it a thought. To stop, what you say the “difference in enforcement” approach from the Fire & Rescue Services in Scotland, and of course the other parts of the UK, this legislation was brought about and of course the number of deaths (Rosepark) demanded new legislation. I agree that before this legislation there was a disproportionate No of Officer (just a few) approached this matter using “well I think it should be” rather than a common legal approach, even within Strathclyde. We would have one FS officer dealing with a building or company, he/she moves on and the next one does not like how it was done (FS survey or requirements) that had to stop. I do believe now, this has a better footing and standing as far as how the employers prepare their Fire RISK Assessment. In conclusion, I would caution you regarding having “hold open devices” for your laundry/Kitchens, I know of at least 11 cases where the F&RS have demanded they be removed. Most of these companies had decided to go their own way and produce their own Fire Risk Assessment. Which was found, "unsuitable and insufficient" for the risk. I do like to speak/tpe with people re fire safety and as I said it does not upset or affect me either way. I feel it is healthy to enter discussion, not to persuade but add another dimension from a person who is not an expert but has some experience in this field. Regards FH John Clenaghan