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Posted By Rodney Glew
I have always advised clients that electrical sockets in motor vehicle workshops should be protected by RCDs.
This is because a simple risk assessment shows that water could be present and water and electricity do not mix.
One client is now saying "it ain't a legal requirement" - surely if a risk assessment shows it is, then it is!
Any advice would be appreciated.
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Posted By Tabs
HSAWA '74 section 2.
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Just sometimes, that type of argument can be self-defeating. There will also be a risk (and you can quantify this relatively against the water risk any way you please) of the release of petrol vapour. RCDs won't help you then.
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Posted By Tabs
"RCDs won't help you then."
I miss your point. Putting salt or grit on an icy walkway won't save you against an explosion either - but most of us would still do it.
Raising another risk as a reason not to mitigate the one in question is odd - or are you proposing that an RCD increases the explosion risk? (Puzzled)
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Posted By PhilP
Rodney
Whilst RCD's are one type of control that is without doubt very efficient, the question must be asked what are the sockets powering?
If they are used in conjuction with extension leads to power drills or angle grinders that are used under vehicle ramps (high probability of water ingress at this time of year) then can the equipment be changed for battery operated?
From experience this is also quicker and less messy for the mechanic who has to find, unravel and then clean the extension (quicker repair + time saved bonus = more money). Most other equipment used under a vehicle will be pneumatically powered so no electrical hazard.
If the sockets are powering bench mounted equipment the potential for water ingress causing fault is fairly low, especially with regular inspections in place. Inspection lights have always been 110 volts in the workshops I have been a mechanic in so again not a real issue when combined with regular inspections.
A bit more information on the usage of the sockets would be heplful to answer the question fully.
Philip
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Tabs, you are absolutely correct - you missed my point!
My point being that "Risk Assessment" has the potential to be applied as a universal blunt instrument to justify just about anything.
The risk of a pontential release of water in a workshop can be subject to a series of perfectly reasonable controls to make that eventuality extremely remote.
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Posted By Tabs
Ah I see. I understand now you have said it.
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Posted By SteveD-M
Legal requiremet comes from DSEAR anywhere there is a potential for the build up of flammable atmosphere.
The Regulations apply wherever a dangerous substance is, or is liable to
be, present at the workplace. Dangerous substances include substances,
preparations and dusts with the potential to give rise to fires, explosions and
similar energetic (energy releasing) events.
This sort of covers it for me...
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Posted By SteveD-M
Spell cheeks on holiday again!!
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Posted By Robert Randall
Like yourself Rodney I also always recommend RCD's in motor vehicle workshops. They are an industrial environment and 240-volt equipment is sometimes used and sometimes in wet or other adverse conditions. You cannot control the conditions of use but you can control the response of the supply circuit to a fault condition.
It takes only a second or two to be electrocuted and the effects are often fatal. RCD's will significantly reduce the risk so there is, in my humble opinion, no valid argument for not fitting them.
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Posted By dean todd
Interesting have you had the electrical periodic( 5 yearly) if you have would not be supprised that there would be a recommmendation for RCD protection becouse of the plugging and un plugging of electrical hand tools 17th edition regs?
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Posted By Robert Randall
I always recommend the periodical inspection report for the fixed electrical system to clients (3 years incidentally for industrial premises) but contractors do vary in their application of the standards. Some recommend RCD's only in wet areas while others do not seem to recommend them at all.
Rob R
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Posted By graeme12345
an rcd will only detect to earth , so there could be a damaged lead with live wires exposed and still be live, if you touch the live parts you act as an earth and the rcd detects earth so will give you a shock but I think it is for a very short duration, something like 55 milliseconds before cut off.
All your sockets should be rcd protected and this function is usually carried out by the main consumer unit
perhaps an electrician would like to comment!
can u not use battery operated tools? or 110V?
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Posted By peter gotch
Rodney
If portable tools are double insulated then RCD will provide no protection, as no earth wire.
Regards, Peter
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Posted By GeoffB4
Absolutely wrong.
An RCD detects an imbalance between live and neutral, any (usually if >30ma detected) current going to earth will cause it to trip.
Please think carefully before giving and taking advice on this forum, it could cause all sorts of problems if you get it wrong.
Note that if someone has been electrocuted - they are dead! If you just get an electric shock you have been lucky!
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Posted By GeoffB4
... and that current could be going through you.
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Posted By peter gotch
OK Geoff,
Noting first that as I recall over 95% of all shocks involve fault to earth, how does current find its way through TWO layers of insulation? We are not talking 11kV.
P
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Posted By GeoffB4
First I've introduced an error - should read 30ma.
I think you are missing the point, it's through the body Peter. It would be rare for someone to touch live contacts and getting an shock electric shock, without it partially going to earth and tripping the RCD. I am aware this is not 100% infallible but is rare for it not to occur.
RCDs are to protect people NOT equipment. So we are talking about someone getting a shock from any electrical equipment whether it be double insulated or not, and the RCD providing the required protection.
MCBs and the like are for equipment protection.
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Posted By GeoffB4
And to specifically answer your question - by an operative touching a nicked part of the cable where there is exposure to the inner conductors - that's one example. Another could be a pulled cable from the plug again exposing bare conductors. Want more examples?
Cracked cases, cracked plug, non insulated plug pins .............
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Posted By Robert Randall
"Note that if someone has been electrocuted - they are dead! If you just get an electric shock you have been lucky!"
Fair do's Peter I was wrong to use the word "electrocuted" for a non-fatal electric shock. I stand corrected. I am usually quite good at the Mother tongue too. Ah well it is Friday!
Rob R
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Posted By Ian Gardner
I've seen this myth a fair bit on various forums recently, with people convinced that RCDs will only work if here is an earth connection, and so won't provide protection for Class II/Double Insulated systems. I can only assume that it comes from a basic ignorance of what an RCD is, and how and why it works.
It's heartening to see that when when people have posted these innacurate beliefs as fact, they have been swiftly corrected by other forum members (and not just this forum either).
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Posted By Jonf
Therefore, with reference to the HSE risk assessment examle (240v equipment with no mention of an RCD), and comments made above, the the use of 240v (with the provision of an RCD) is OK?
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Posted By GeoffB4
Mmmmm. OK to a degree. RCDs do fail in service (mechanically & electrically. On occasion they have been known not to trip if there is no earth leakage path (this is not the same as double insulated equipment).
Preferred option would be battery or 110V.
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Posted By Jonf
Seems that DUST is the main problem with RCD`s according to other electrical forums / sites (construction sites!). Relying on a £6.50p RDC seems wrong.
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Posted By GeoffB4
Especially if they never get checked ....
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Posted By Jonf
Legislation (EWR)indicates that - "the lowest available voltage should be used..." (110v over mains - or battery). 240 equipment isn`t designed for high duty cycles (industrial use).
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Posted By Robert Randall
Rodney you say:
"Legislation (EWR)indicates that - "the lowest available voltage should be used..." (110v over mains - or battery). 240 equipment isn`t designed for high duty cycles (industrial use)."
Fair enough but let's be reasonable, in fact let's be reasonably practicable. Most MV workshops nowadays use mainly air powered tools and only very ocassionally would they use a 240-volt power tool. To expect the business to install a 110-volt supply and then change any 240-volt equipment for 110-volt (assuming that it is available) is a step beyond reasonably practicable in my book.
An RCD hard wired, either in the socket outlet or on the distribution board, is a less expensive but perfectly acceptable control measure for what is an ocassional risk.
Rob R
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Posted By Tony Priest
Going back to the original post No there are no legal requirements to have RCD for (existing) car workshops, (with the exception of steam cleaners and pressure washers) and Rodney your advice is good practice to have them fitted. Yes water could be present, but there may be good control measures to remove or clean it up, therefore reducing the risk.
As I am aware just because a control measure has been identified in a RA management may deem that the control is not reasonably practicable to implement/use at that time, it doesn't make it a legal requirement.
As previously noted many power tools in workshops are air powered, bench mounted or hard wired. Battery chargers, electric drills, extension leads, air con machines, diagnostic equipment are examples of common portable electrical equipment used in these areas. For Rodney to advice in all of his risk assessments to have RCD to be fitted may be unreasonable, the risk assessments must take into consideration the likelihood of the equipment giving rise to danger. For example a vacuum cleaner used in a valet bay where the floor can be wet and vehicles driving over the electric cables then, the use of a RCD would be reasonable. Notwithstanding the term unreasonable I do understand that for a small amount of money a life could be saved.
I went to investigate a person who had an electric shock, where an electric cable had been trapped in the mechanism of a vehicle lift whilst it was being lowered and the lift became live, the person was OK but this is a story that I use to convince my clients to fit RCD.
I am led to believe that the latest 17th edition wiring reg’s do stipulate that RCD to be fitted to new workshop environments as standard.
Note for previous posts, in my opinion: I have never seen 110V equipment fitted in car workshops. Nowadays electrical inspection lamps in car workshops are either 12V or battery powered. I am quite surprised that some people on this forum are giving incorrect information on the protection offered by RCD. Not all electrical equipment used in workshops is double insulated. IMHO the HSE RA sample for MVR in not the best and the ‘important reminder’ at the top of the RA says it all. RCD are prone to constantly tripping on heavy duty and industrial battery chargers.
SteveD a RCD will not prevent a spark.
Head down and waiting for incoming.
Tony
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Posted By GeoffB4
Quote: For example a vacuum cleaner used in a valet bay where the floor can be wet and vehicles driving over the electric cables then, the use of a RCD would be reasonable. Notwithstanding the term unreasonable I do understand that for a small amount of money a life could be saved.
But: Better control measures would be to run the cable at height and drop down to the point of use, and to purchase vacuum cleaners fit for purpose in a damp environment. The RCD would then be in place as a last resort protective device rather than higher up in the hierarchy.
Tripping of RCDs can be much reduced by the use of specific sensitivities to suit the job being carried out.
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Posted By Rodney Glew
Thanks to all who have contributed.
To answer some queries:
The water drips of the actual vehicles and, with our weater, easily "ponds" in most workshops.
Inspection/hand lamps are usually 24 v.
Diagnostic equipment, used at front, side and rear of most vehicles is 240v and this is the major concern.
Rod
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Posted By GeoffB4
Rodney, noted you really haven't got an answer to your question about an item in a risk assessment being a legal requirement.
My answer would be no, but I can see an embarrassing situation, if someone does get hure, where the client is asked why he/she didn't comply with their advisors recommendation.
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Posted By Rodney Glew
Geoff
Thanks for pointing this aspect out and I think your comment answers my original query.
Rodney
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Posted By Tony Priest
Geoff,
You are absolutely right.
What I was referring to was to the original post and what actually goes on in almost every valeting area (and some car workshops) across the country.
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Posted By Rodney Glew
Thanks
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