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Stair Case Collapse - General Needs Property
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Posted By Abs Malik
Hi all, i need some guidance as a matter of urgency please.
Within one of our general needs properties an accident occured which resulted in someone sustaining a fractured collar bone.
The cousin of the houshold (your normal terraced house ownede by housing association) visited the property. She went upstairs to use to bathroom, as she was coming back down the staircase the staircase literally collapsed and she fell 10 feet below ground. She remains in hospital.
I am now trying to interpret the regs. This is a normal household however we have the respnsibility of maintaing any repairs as required by the occupants, hence for this reason HSE advice line have said the incident is reportable.
Could i get your views, if you feel it is reportable though it is not directly work related. Could you also define which section of the reg you feel it would be reportable under?
Many thanks
Abs
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Posted By SteveD-M
Abs
Sorry but you would need to report it as the owner of the property.
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Posted By MT
Just to confuse you, I would disagree with the previous poster and say that this is not a reportable incident. The incident did not arise in connection with any work, i.e. the person who was injured was not at work, and was not injured by someone who was carrying out work.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Let me add to that, this was a structural defect, and we are reponsible for the maintenance. The stair case collapsed, i am still in the opinion that it is reportable.
Any one else with any thoughts?
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Posted By MT I still disagree. Look at this page: http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/index.htmWhat are the words in the very centre of it? "INCIDENT AT WORK?" is what it says. Who was at work in this case?
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Posted By Kenneth Patrick
MT are you sure?:
Effect of 'Arising out of or in connection with work' on reporting accidents involving people not at work.
35 In the following examples the accidents, which involve people who are not at
work, would all be regarded as 'arising out of or in connection with work'. As a
result, if one of the people died or suffered an injury leading to them being taken
to a hospital, regulation 3(1 )(c) would apply and the death or injury must be
reported:
(a) someone shopping who was involved in an accident at an escalator in a shop,
where the accident was attributable to the design or condition of the
escalator;
(b) a patient/resident in a nursing or residential care home who tripped and fell
over an obstruction such as an electrical cable lying across a floor in the
home;
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Posted By MT
Ok, I'll try to demonstrate why I think that this incident is not reportable. I'll gladly change my mind if I can be convinced otherwise!
You have quoted:
(a) someone shopping who was involved in an accident at an escalator in a shop,
where the accident was attributable to the design or condition of the
escalator;
(b) a patient/resident in a nursing or residential care home who tripped and fell
over an obstruction such as an electrical cable lying across a floor in the
home;
Both of those premises are workplaces. Indeed, the persons involved in the accidents were not at work, but they were in a workplace.
A private home, albeit owned by a housing association, in which a member of the public has an accident does not, in my opinion, constitute a workplace. The person was not at work and no work was being undertaken.
The Summary of the main duties of RIDDOR state in section 7, that "The Regulations apply to events which arise out of or in connection with work activities covered by the HSW Act."
I love these conundrums which crop up on this forum as they give a great opportunity to learn something new and do a bit of research.
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Posted By Ian Blenkharn
In his original submission, Abs wrote "hence for this reason HSE advice line have said the incident is reportable."
What sort of this message does this thread send to HSE, to the Courts, and to the public who might just get the idea that some safety professionals will do all they can to hide from their responsibilities and talk themselves out of trouble?
If HSE Advice Line says report it, don't compound the problem by going against the advice they have given you - report it.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Ian i fully agree with you, you are correct, you should report where in doubt, my reasoning behind this thread was to get opinions. I find it annoying the RIDDOR regs have not been reviewed due to the high level of unclarity in certain business sectors.
Appreciate everyones input on this.
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Posted By MT
Ian, it might interest you know that I am an enforcement officer, hence unlikely to be attempting to persuade someone not to comply with the law. I just gave my thoughts that the incident is not reportable under RIDDOR. I know from experience that advice given out by the HSE advice line is not always 100% accurate and it appeared from Abs' first post that he/she may also be querying the advice received.
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Posted By Abs Malik
MT what if i said work was undertaken by our staff not long ago on the staircase, would that change your view?
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Posted By Abs Malik
im looking more carefully with the wordings "in connection with work" especially since staff did some work
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Abs, it may help if we were to contrast and compare this with a similar incident in a domestic dwelling with a LA or Housing Association as Landlord - a position not that dissimilar to your own.
The duty of care owed and liabilities arising are recognised and also much the same, however there is no expectation of the LA or HA reporting (let alone having knowledge of)the accidents arising in the home.
Only where specific legislation applies (e.g. gas safety) would I contemplate an incident in a purely domestic setting in a RIDDOR context.
"A duty of care does not necessarily a RIDDOR make" perhaps?
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Posted By Phil Grace
Abs,
The HSE Web page on RIDDOR states this:
The Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995 (RIDDOR), place a legal duty on:
• employers;
• self-employed people;
• people in control of premises;
to report work-related deaths, major injuries or over-three-day injuries, work related diseases, and dangerous occurrences (near miss accidents).>>>
In this case I would have thought that the legal body that owns/operates the premises would fall within the term “property owners”. Note that the “Major Injury” wording is NOT qualified by the words “work-related” or anything similar. Following the link to Major Injuries one sees the following:
Major injuries
If there is an accident connected with work and your employee, or self-employed person working on the premises sustains a major injury, or a member of the public suffers an injury and is taken to hospital from the site of the accident, you must notify the enforcing authority without delay by telephoning the ICC or completing the appropriate online form (F2508).
Reportable major injuries are:
• Fracture, other than to fingers, thumbs and toes; >>>
It should be noted that the wording simply refers to a member of the public suffering an injury and being taken to hospital…! A fractured collar bone falls within the definition of a Major Injury
Seems to me that it is reportable under RIDDOR unless I’m reading the above wrongly….
Phil
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Posted By MT
No, Abs, it wouldn't change my mind. If the RIDDOR report landed on my desk, I would conclude that it had been wrongly accepted by the ICC staff, and would not investigate it. The accident happened in a dwellinghouse and not a workplace.
If your employees who were carrying out work on the staircase had been injured when they were working, then that would be a different story.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Hi all,
I have got a second opinion form the HSE advice line who again have confirmed it is reportable.
Under L73 here are their reasonings
31 ‘Arising out of or in connection with work’ has a very wide meaning and
regulation 2 (2)(c) does not give a complete definition.
32 Determining if an accident is reportable under RIDDOR does not
depend on apportioning blame. The broad meaning of ‘arising out of or in
connection with work’ means that an accident may still be reportable even if
there had been no breach of health and safety law and no-one was clearly to
blame.
34 The key factors are:
· ‘the condition of the premises used by the undertaking or of any part of
them’.
This includes the state of the structure or fabric of a building or outside
area forming part of the premises and the state and design of floors,
paving, stairs, lighting etc; for example, a building is being refurbished
and a temporary wall collapses, injuring a passer-by.
There is also the point that the IP was not a resident and in fact a visitor of the property. We are also the responsible people for the maintenance
Hence i will report.
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Posted By MT
Phil, I would argue that you are reading it wrongly.
You say that: "In this case I would have thought that the legal body that owns/operates the premises would fall within the term “property owners”. Note that the “Major Injury” wording is NOT qualified by the words “work-related” or anything similar."
Yet you then post this section:
"Major injuries
If there is an accident connected with work and your employee, or self-employed person working on the premises sustains a major injury, or a member of the public suffers an injury and is taken to hospital from the site of the accident, you must notify the enforcing authority without delay by telephoning the ICC or completing the appropriate online form (F2508). "
which starts with the sentence "If there is an accident CONNECTED WITH WORK...".
I would argue that there is no work and that the dwellinghouse is not a workplace.
I work for a local authority and we do not report accidents which occur within the homes rented out to members of the public. If a person falls over and breaks their leg in a council house it is not RIDDOR reportable.
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Posted By MT
Well, Abs, I am very surprised at the response you got, and I still don't agree with it! I'm just having a quick look at the Enforcing Authority Regs, which state that the fact that a domestic property is managed by a housing association does not alter the fact that it is domestic premises. It also states that the HSE is responsible for enforcement, but that it is "confined to peripatetic work activities or their effects" which I would interpret as meaning contractors etc onsite, carrying out work on the domestic premises and therefore any accident involving them and their work.
I'll have to agree to disagree with the HSE's infoline on this one. I've asked a few colleagues, and all agree with me.
I wouldn't worry about getting any follow up from the HSE on your report though! Thanks for posting the thread - it's given me lots of food for thought this morning!
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Abs,I find the 'second opinion' you quote above to be very worrying.
How the HSE expect to get any sort of coherent information about industry accident trends when they spout such wooly-worded advice is beyond me.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Hi Ron,
My second call to the HSE advice line was to gain reassurance that the advice they are providing was accurate and consistent, and the 2nd advisor confirmed exactly what the first advisor did, which to me was comforting.
I would not go against HSE advice line recommendations, though i do agree sometimes their advice can be wooly, hence i specifically asked for reference to particular parts of the regs, which they managed to give me.
Even though our fellow enforcement officer has said it is not reportable, i have come across instance where local enforcement officers are wrong when interpreting legislations. Mt that is no crticism to you.
I take a view point of report anyway where there is uncertainty. Its better you do than not do! Whats the harm? there is none, though some organisation i am aware are very critcal when it comes to reporting!
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Posted By MT
Absolutely no offence taken - we can all be wrong sometimes, and I'm no exception!
As I said, I'd be glad for someone to prove me wrong, but still the HSE's infoline fail to have me convinced.
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Posted By graeme12345
I would not report it under RIDDOR, but would certainly try to find out how it happened and possible causes because you do not want another one happening.
this is not an employee / employer issue.
The tenant may well take out a civil action against you, you will have to defend yourself by producing tenants handbook, maintenance records and and the way your company responds to repair issues
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Posted By Abs Malik
Its very interesting to hear any enforcement officer say the HSE advice line provides wrong info. Which i am sure most people will agree on, i do find their advice very vague without much consideration.
I suppose my next issue is, the advice line is essentially used as a backstop to ascertain clarity on whether an incident is reportable. However, often with their clear lack of knowledge, it puts us as decision makers in an awkward position. What i now try to do is, if the advice line say something is not reportable and i disagree i request info in writing (but on most ocassions they are unwilling to do this)I wonder why ;-)
I hope no HSE advisors from the contact centre are reading this. On the other hand hope they are, maybe it will prompt more action to be taken to further help and support businesses!
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Posted By graeme12345
sorry should have said "the cousin".
Do not report it.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Lets twist this thread further. Its getting exciting! If a building is built, e.g. houses, CDM would apply while under construction, lets say the houses were completed and occupants move in, and 6 months down the line the stairs collapse because it had not been constructed properly.
Would you report that? You would if the collapse occured in between the build and injured workmen.
but what happens when occupants move in to the home and are injured, and it is proved that the fault is on the build of the stairs?
MT what are your views on this one?
Abs
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Posted By Ron Hunter
If the majority decide to adopt this principle "it is better to report than not report...." then the whole purpose of RIDDOR will be lost.
In the 'good old days'(before the RIDDOR Reporting Line came into being) the local HSE Office would always call to berate those who sent in an inappropriate Report. It seems these days that there is little (if any) QA built into the system.
Your most recent scenario Abs? - still not RIDDOR !
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Posted By Kenneth Patrick
One of the facts that has been established through this forum is that the HSE helpline is not manned by HSE employees. It is a commercial organisation who effectively give you the published guidance, they do not interpret. Perhaps it would be better if we had the OSHA system. Yo can write directly to OSHA and they will give you an Interpretation which is then published on their website and becomes part of the rule
Dear Ms. Vaught:
Thank you for your letter dated February 15, 2008, to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regarding the Injury and Illness Recording and Reporting Requirements contained in 29 CFR Part 1904. Specifically, you requested guidance from OSHA on whether to record two cases regarding commuting to work.
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Posted By Swis
I agree with MT & Ron on this one. It's not reportable.
Please note that advisors are human too. They get the same qualification as anyone else. I can understand why they suggested to report the incident. They follow the basic rule ' report if unsure'.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Ron, i totally disagree. The liabilty issue and consequences of not reporting something which is reportable is severe. I should know, we are going through a similar incident in which we were adviced by the HSE info line that a particular incident was not reportable, however as the concered IP later passed away, we again got advice from HSe info line who said again it was not reportable.
We are now under investigation for not reporting a reportable incidents.
On that basis i would rather report than not report. The HSE and local authority will not come down on you if you report something which isn't clear in the regs! They would be silly to do that. There is already a hevy amount of under reporting to the HSE as already mentioned by someone, many RIDDORS are not being reported making the national averages theoretically untrue!
I have spoken to many HSE inspectors who have always advised to over report than under report. Generally all gradiosh course you attend will advise you to over report where you are unsure! Not under report.
The good old days are now phasing out! A lot more thought needs to be put into the interpretation of the legislation.
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
I believe that incident is not reportable under RIDDOR. I do not agree with helpline advisors at all in their justifications. There’s no solid reference in any guidance document including L73.
However, I would agree with abs on ‘report if not sure situation’. This does not mean in anyway that HSE will prosecute otherwise. They can only prosecute in the light of a breach. (no law, no breach)
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Posted By Pete48
Isn't the question, what work was being undertaken or for what work are the premises used by the undertaking?
No work, no report.
The shop and other examples of people not at work are clearly places of work in which or by which people have been injured due to activities arising out of work.
A domestic property that is not a workplace of the occupier or owner and where there is no work by any undertaking at the time of the incident cannot be work related, can it?
Never mind the pages of confusing guidance, that is just my logical conclusion.
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Posted By Abs Malik
Everyone, many thanks for your input, im sure this has been beneficial to us all, some very different views around the table.
None the less my report is going through ;-)
Speak soon
abdul
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Posted By graeme12345
this is whats wrong with out profession, to much legislation that is to complicated for inteligent persons to understand and apply to their work situations.
No wonder Joe Public have no faith
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Posted By Amandac
Firstly were your employees conducting a repair or maintaining the staircase at the time of the collapse which caused the person to be injured. Or in other words was any work taking place at the time of the accident? If the answer is YES it is an incident arising out of the work activity. If the answer is NO it is not. The confusion here is that you are a social housing provider, however the residents enjoy being just that - residents.
The other point is relating to your duty to maintain the property in accordance with the Housing Corporation specification. that is an entirely different issue.
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Posted By Decimomal
This has been an interesting, if long winded discussion.
Abs,it appears that you have decided to report the incident after all. I just wonder why you needed to go through this debate after you had contacted the info line and been given the advice. Once I had been given the advice that I requested I would have been tempted to follow it.
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Posted By Jay Joshi
I do not agree that this is RIDDOR reportable. If it is, then what about slips, trips and falls that and all the rest that happen to tenants in such properties--for example water on the bathroon floor that is ceramic tiled???.
It is one thing when it ius a nursing home etc, quite another when it comes to such tenants.
Nowm if there was some refurbishment work bing carried out, and the actual carrying out of the work had a connection with the accident, it would have been reportable.
Yes, the collapse need to be investigated and learnings applied to prevent a recurrance. The injured party has the right to sue for a civil claim.
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Posted By graeme12345
reporting something just because you do not know whether to or not is just being incompetent.
Another thread refers to the HSE stats, what does this then say about the integrity of those figures.
(have always thought they are a waste of time and totally inacurate)
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Posted By Ron Hunter
Just wanted to share with you my experience that the HSE can and DO come down on Organisations who send in inappropriate RIDDOR reports. I haven't personally got the T-Shirt, but I have been close enough to get my hair dried!
If in doubt......seek (competent) advice, but please, not a default to RIDDOR reporting.
I think enough has already been said above about the competency of the Reporting Line.
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Posted By bill strachan1
Thoroughly enjoyed this thread, good entertainment.
Have to agree with the majority of professional and sensible responses though...... How can this be classified as work related??? The mind boggles :-(
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
Of course one should not however forget that there is a potential section 3 breach here. Part of the undertaking of the organisation is to provide housing and thus to provide accommodation with an insecure stairway is adversely affecting the H&S of a person not in employment. One can therefore presume that the condition of the premises is part of the work activity of the organisation. This is not the same as someone slipping on the stairs where this would not then be work related as the organisation has no direct impact on this event, assuming the stair treads are not at fault.
Report it but be aware that you need to find answers as to why this happened and whether other similar properties are affected.
Bob
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