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#1 Posted : 04 December 2008 06:27:00(UTC)
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Posted By prads
Can someone give me tips as to how we can calculate the fire load and the number of different types of fire extinguishers required?

Regards,
Prads
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#2 Posted : 04 December 2008 07:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mike DF
Hi, if it was me I would get a fire extinguisher supply & service company (or two) in to do the job. This is a specialisation that one tends to need on a one-off basis so get the experts in. They are unlikely to charge in my experience.
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#3 Posted : 04 December 2008 10:07:00(UTC)
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Posted By Andy Petrie
you're fire load will be well in excess of the capability of the fire extinguishers you install (even in a small office).

The purpose of extinguishers is to put out very small fires or to clear an escape route.

They should not be used for big fires, you should get out as quickly as possible and leave it to the fire brigade.
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#4 Posted : 04 December 2008 10:29:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
Siting and the number of extinguishers is not rocket science but fire loading can be if you let it!

Basically if you have a pair of extinguishers at each and every exit that will usually be enough, choose from water or foam positioned with a CO2.

That should suffice for most buildings but larger will need more thought.

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#5 Posted : 05 December 2008 18:52:00(UTC)
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Posted By MP Grayson
By eck. You may regret asking this. There is no one simple answer. To give an accurate figure I would need to see your location, hazards, risks, other control measures, number of floors, numbers of fire exits etc, etc.

But you asked and you deserve a quick answer, so here’s a long one.

I would start by measuring the floor space for EACH floor and use this calculation.

Take the floor space and multiply by 0.065. So if your floor space is 20m x 30m = 600m2 x 0.065 = 39

Now look at the “A” rating found on any water, foam and dry power fire extinguishers that you have. Water is normally 13A, foam 23A (ish). And dry powder about 32A (ish). BUT they do vary considerably. I would then deduct those figures from the figure above. I am aiming for 0 or a minus figure.

So in example # 1. If you had x1 water @ 13A and x1 foam @ 23A your calculation would be

39 – 13A = 26 – 23A = 3

In example # 2. If you had three water @ 13A, the figure would be

39 – 13A – 13A – 13A = 0. Which is “Bob-on”.

The first example calculation leaves you an excess figure of 3, which means you are just over a quarter of a water extinguisher short. The obvious solution is to buy another water @ 13A which gives you a minus figure (-10). THAT is exactly what a fire extinguisher sales company will tell you to do and sell you extra fire extinguishers. Do you want that? Think about the extra maintenance costs. Unfortunately I cannot, (without looking at your premises) advise you what to do in that situation. Also do you need water, foam or dry powder? Or do you NOT need them? To get answer that question, you will need to look VERY closely at your fire risk (including number of floors, locations of exits and number of exits, carpets fitted, curtains, paper etc) and any other control measures. Also remember that you cannot use CO2 in the above calculation as it only has a "B" rating. And siting the extinguishers is another issue.

That should give you a basic start point. After that look at specific hazards such as flammable liquids and computers. That's when you start to introduce CO2 extinguishers and extra foam/powder on top of the basic requirements.

Deciding what fire extinguisher you want is also not that straight forward.

1. Foam? Great, but many people don’t actually know how to use it proper like. When using it on liquids you need to aim past the fire, bounce it off an obstruction and build up a blanket of foam which will work back and cover the fire. Squirt it directly at a liquid fire (class B) in the open and you just spread the fire all over the place. And it is not recommended for fires involving electricity.

2. Powder is the wonder stuff and it has a high “A” rating. But it can cost in other ways. You could for example use it to put out a fire that would cause £30 worth of damage, but by doing so you could cause £1000 worth of damage to your IT or other electrical equipment. The powder gets everywhere. Don’t use a vacuum cleaner to clear it up either, it wont last too long as the dust will get into the motor and “put it out”. Use water, scrapers and rags. Anybody breathing in the powder who suffers from asthma will have an attack. The powder is also very fine and it will penetrate the lungs and enter the blood stream. It is not toxic however; it is a VERY, VERY POWERFUL LAXATIVE. I would not recommend taking a sleeping pill that night. ;-o

Apparently I can charge up to £400 for training and fire risk assessments etc. (a man on the telly said so last night). So if you need a hand………….You also get a free COSHH assessment for the dry powder.

Anyway. I must fly. I filled the washing up bowl with hot soapy water and placed a little surprise into it. I need to see if the current Mrs G has found it the hard way

Crack on.
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#6 Posted : 05 December 2008 19:57:00(UTC)
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Posted By Toe
What a cracking response.
I for one will find this information helpful.
Thanks
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#7 Posted : 06 December 2008 09:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By jervis
You could have as many as you like but are your staff trained on the different types its ok having knowing what to do or when to use them if safe to do so.
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#8 Posted : 06 December 2008 09:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By Safety110
You should try PAS 79:2007.

I have enclosed a link to where you can get all the standards.

http://www.bsi-global.co...s/Fire_Brochure_2008.pdf

I had a meeting with the Hampshire Fire and Rescue Officer and he advised me that if you contact the local station they will be willing to help...even give you some free fire alarms.

Hope this helps
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#9 Posted : 06 December 2008 10:43:00(UTC)
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Posted By GeoffB4
MP, excellent response but a query if I may?

I've seen Foam (AFFF) recommended for electrical fires up to 30kV, and been advised by an extinguisher sales man up to 13kV. As most office environments are 3 phase maximum, are foam extinguishers suitable for the electrics in that type of environment?

I note you say they should not be used for that purpose but they are a lot less messy than water (and as you say, powder)?
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#10 Posted : 06 December 2008 11:09:00(UTC)
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Posted By jervis
I always thought foam was water based so not ideal for electrical fires!!!!!!
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#11 Posted : 06 December 2008 12:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By Bluenose
Excuse me for being stupid. But what is the 0.065. Is that a constant or is there another reason?
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#12 Posted : 06 December 2008 12:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By SNS
MP,
Thanks for the full info given, however - for my simple brain, should the floor area be for each room / enclosure, or for each total external dimension of the building footprint?

TIA

S

PS. where are you geographically? may have some work for you :) PM would be ok.
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#13 Posted : 06 December 2008 12:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By GeoffB4
That's the query/confusion I have. The reference below is just one of several on the internet where they suggest AFFF can be used but that it is not recommended.

http://www.firesafe.org....html/fsequip/exting1.htm

So just what does that mean? Is it safe or not?

Any clarification is welcome.

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#14 Posted : 06 December 2008 15:12:00(UTC)
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Posted By MP Grayson
Firstly, many thanks for the kind words.

I totally agree with the comment above. Training is a big issue and yes, you need to train staff to use each type.

The formula works for a whole floor. Zoning can require extra extinguishers but that is very dependent on risks, location of extinguishers, distance to travel, panicking managers who will worry if they don't see the EU fire extinguisher mountain at their work. If you start with that formula as the basic, then look at extra extinguishers for specific risk(s). You may then find that each zone has its own extinguishers. Which will be located near the appropriate hazard. There are too many variables and issues to give a straight answer without a visit. Sorry. And if the zoning layout makes it hard to get to a fire extinguisher then you need more. You should never have to travel further than 30 meters to get an appropriate extinguisher.

Some manufacturers do say that their foam extinguishers are safe to use with electrics. Two problems that I can see are: The basic ingredient in foam is water (be it distilled). They work on the fact that distilled water has no impurities (so less electrical conduction) and that each individual bubble will insulate itself. The first problem is that when the foam is allowed to puddle it starts to break down and revert back to water (now with lots of impurities) and its chemical agent. OK this process does take time, so hopefully the power will be off by then. The second is that you could be using foam and your best mate comes along with dry powder to help. When the two mix the foam IMMEDIATELY breaks down. That could potentially ruin the rest of your day. Some establishments have been known use that little trick when training people how to use fire extinguishers. Having extinguished the fire with foam, give it one quick squirt of powder and the foam is gone ready for the fire to be relit for the next trainee.

The figure of 0.065 was invented by some boffins who played with fires and calculated all sorts of stuff like calorific energy etc. and amount of agent required to extinguish fires. It’s a straight forward figure no lograms etc. I first came across it during my training as a prison fire officer and then again during the NEBOSH Certificate in Fire Safety and Risk Management (which I highly recommend, even if you have the MSc or Diplomas). The figure forms the basis for the idea of providing one water extinguisher for each 200m2 (as most water extinguishers are 13A rated).

But I must stress. It is only a starting point, the real issue is the over and above extinguishers (if required).

Crack on.
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#15 Posted : 06 December 2008 15:22:00(UTC)
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Posted By MP Grayson
Sorry SMS I cannot access your e-mail. I cant put too much on here as IOSH will (quite rightly block it out).

Crack on
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#16 Posted : 06 December 2008 20:45:00(UTC)
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Posted By MP Grayson
Sorry should be SNS. Finger trouble.
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#17 Posted : 07 December 2008 11:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By Crim
Like I said earlier, assessing fire load can be rocket science if you let it!

If you are going to use that formula please make sure you get all decimal points in the right place and double check the result.

Also remember that extinguishers are first aid fire appliances and will only last for a minute or so, if that depending on size. They should be located on the way out from a building so you can decide whether to pick one up and use it on the fire or just keep going and call the fire brigade.

Also also remember life safety is paramount, if in doubt get out and call the brigade out.

If your mathematical formula points to the need for additional extinguishers inside the building, depending upon travel distance, or for instance to protect a particular machine then site them as well - as close to the risk or the pedestrian route as practicable.

Good luck - it appears you will need it!



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#18 Posted : 08 December 2008 15:13:00(UTC)
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Posted By Mark Eastbourne
Absolutely cracking thread, I really enjoyed it and learnt much. Many thanks to those who participated!

Marko
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