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You wont get a straight answer on this forum
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Posted By PMW
I post this thread in response to the entry by Steve Cartwright - 'Final exit doors - is this acceptable?'
Steve has kindly advised me to post a new thread. This is a serious question, not mean't as sarcastic or obtuse. So here it is;
Steve - as a relative newbie to this site, I am interested to know - do you honestly feel its a waste of time asking for specific advice on this forum? I appreciate that there are time wasters, moaners etc but most of us are able to sort out what's what. I have read some very helpful advice on this site. Surely the obvious answer is to contact the local fire service. Personal experience and opinion is important too?
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Posted By GeoffB4
Ironic don't you think, when I have to say in response, 'What's the question'.
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Posted By ScotsAM
There may not always be a specific right or wrong way to approach a problem.
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Posted By PMW
I dont think I am making myself clear, so apologies. In another post, Final exit doors is this acceptable. there was an entry saying - Contact Local Fire Authority. You wont get a straight answer on this forum. If you wish to read all of thread, I think my question is then a bit clearer. cheers.
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Posted By Brando
Most of the questions I've asked for help on over the years have been answered well.
You do get some odd answers but so what - filter them out and move on. Generally this is a very positive forum.
Brando
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Posted By GeoffB4
This is going round in circles. The first and major part of that thread is from over a year ago.
The last 10 messages or so are a new topic with a different question. The criticism by Steve is not valid in my opinion. There 'are' valid answers on both parts of the thread - the originator is free to choose the parts he/she requires.
There appears to be a lack of understanding about what these boards offer. They are for discussion and for people to air their skills and opinions. That being the case,then by definition, a number of views are going to be aired. Some will be wide of the mark, others will offer valuable insights.
To dismiss those responses in terms of not getting straight answers smacks of a lack of tolerance of others views.
Ask you own questions and see how it works for you.
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Posted By John J
I think that people often get led away from the original topic by the answers gicen by other forum members. Its a bit like chinese whispers.
Another problem is the quality of the first post often has to be refined because not enough detail is given to allow an informed opinion to be made.
Having been guilty of both I can't say much other than the thing that really hacks me off is when people post on issues they clearly have no clue about. Some advice given in the past has been so wrong as to be dangerous.
You can generally tell when somebody has got hacked off with a thread they posted when they thank all the contributers without seeming to have got an answer to their original question, just a series of negative comments.
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
I do hope that when IOSH re-model these forums that they include a FAQ, as many threads like this one have been posted before and on many occasions.
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
PMW
You will never get a straight answer on this forum or any other come to think of it.
To answer the question you asked on another thread. Yes it is worth asking a question on this forum. I have in the past used this forum to find infomation. The only problem I had was that I had to go through all the waffle and decide what was relavant.
Yes people are very helpful on this forum and I have responded to many questions posted on this site myself. However there are some who tend waffle when answering, with their what about this or that, have you done this or that, what if my anti had !!! answers.
I very rarely post questions on this forum now. If I have a question say on fire, I ask the local fire authority. They give you a straight answer and normally within a couple of minutes. No waffle or opinions a straight answer.
Steve
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Posted By GeoffB4
But Steve, differing Fire and Rescue Authorities give different answers!!!
So it's still not black and white.
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Posted By David Bannister
banana, boomerang, horseshoe, polo mint, 9-bob note, Arfur Daley, my old scalextrix set, the moon's orbit.
A daft posting deserves a daft response.
A sensible posting is more likely to provoke some good answers.
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Posted By Pete Chidwick
I think that there may be a potential to consider developing a straight answer once the pros and cons have been established, considered and evaluated, with the caveat that the said response should not be taken to mean, construe or otherwise portray itself as an affirmative response.
Hope this helps.
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Posted By Emma Forbes
Sometimes there is no black and white, especially with health and safety. And, it's often just as good to get off on tangents to discover legislation or information that otherwise you wouldn't have the need to know.
It's not such a bad thing, one of the things I love about health and safety, the diversity of the subject - to me, I'll never get bored because there's always something else to consider and another perspective you need to think about. Brainstorming used to be the word for it, I think that is a bit un-PC now - I think it's called mind showering or something as daft as that!
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Geoff
I agree that different Fire Authorities might come up with different answers. However if you contact the one for your area and don't forget it will be they who will be the enforcers then you will be following their advice.
Emma
I agree that it is not always black and white. However I think you will find more often than not it is.
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Posted By Emma Forbes
Sorry Geoff, but even with prescriptive legislative requirements, there isn't always an element of black and white, made even grey-er (is that a word?!) when you apply "good practice" by guidance. It's all about the interpretation of the law and the application.
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Posted By GeoffB4
Steve, my area is all over the country. I have to interpret nationally, not just in a local area.
Emma, where have I said H&S is black and white?
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Posted By GeoffB4
... and funnily enough Emma I'm well aware it is about interpretation!! Most experienced practitioners already know that.
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Posted By shieldon
I've been in different forums, and it seems there are just people who don't wanna answer questions straight. Sometimes I do feel like talking to a href="http://www.californiahealthplans.com">health insurance plan/a> agents. And sometimes, I feel like talking like them in the forums, beating around the bush just so I can laugh at times while simply waiting for something.
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Posted By shieldon
I've been in different forums, and it seems there are just people who don't wanna answer questions straight. Sometimes I do feel like talking to a href="http://www.californiahealthplans.com">health insurance plan/a> agents. And sometimes, I feel like talking like them in the forums, beating around the bush just so I can laugh at times while simply waiting for something.
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Posted By Robert K Lewis
The answer to your statement is thus definitively YES and NO :-)
Bob
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Posted By Descarte
Of all the questions asked and answered on this forum I hope NONE of the originators solely take the advice of the repliers, be they a straight answers or meandering replies away from the original question.
"7. The contents of this Site do not constitute advice and should not be relied upon in making or refraining from making any decision"
However all answers, straight to the point or otherwise will provide an opinion, personal interpretation of legislation, personal experiences and sometimes links to actual legal or ACOP information.
The strengths of these forums and not their failings IMO is their ability to provide a wide ranging opinion and several sources of information on a question to be used by the originator to personnaly determine the correct source of action or seek further professional help.
Des
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Posted By Emma Forbes
Sorry Geoff, I meant Steve, please forgive me!
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Geoff
I used to have the same problem. That is why I used to contact the local fire authority for the particular region I was in.
Steve
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
Emma
I never said it was always black and white.
Quote
I agree that it is not always black and white. However I think you will find more often than not it is.
PMW
Do you think you get a straight answer when posting a question on this forum?
Some people have trouble interpreting the questions and answers on the forum so how they interpret legislation, I don't know.
Steve
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Posted By NJS
GeoffB4, "So it's still not black and white"
i my humble opinion most health and safety queries are not black and white, is that not the whole reason we all use this forum?
its for advice and assistance, but there is also a disclaimer.
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
The ultimate purpose of this forum is to discuss and share our opinion on a concerned topic. Obviously, opinions differ according to peoples’ own experiences and knowledge.
Sadly, we’ll have to take all the posts as ‘opinions’. Some more useful than the others, depending on the credibility of the forum member. Members can not express their views in ‘black & white’ by quoting from legislations, guidance notes, ACOPs etc due to copyright restrictions, moderators’ interpretation of AUG, or perhaps due to some other members’ ‘allergy’ to the legislation. Therefore, members have to use their own interpretations, hence ‘opinion’.
There’s no doubt this forum provides good learning source for everyone, especially the new comers. Not only it provides knowledge of H&S laws but also broadens the minds to assess a situation from various different angles.
I will definitely post my query on the forum to be discussed by various ‘experts’ in the field.
Kirsty
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Posted By TBC
Groundhog Day comes to mind.
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
This thread was a result of of question asked on another thread.
Basically if someone where to ask what is 2+2 on this forum there would be some who would answer 4. However there would be some who would say yes but if you add 1 you will get 5 and if you take away 1 you will get 3 and if you divide it by 2 you will get 2 and so on and so on.
That's the point I was trying to make.
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Posted By GeoffB4
I don't see a problem with that, because it makes up for a rounded answer. I think Descarte gave the best answer in his earlier response.
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Posted By Pete48
Ah the old 2+2 argument. Logic prevails and everything in the universe has a definitive answer. Just try searching on the phrase "when does 2+2 not equal 4" and you will open a whole new world of doubt.
What is a straight answer? Surely the point here is that you seek an answer by posing a question. Having done so you in fact decide which is the "straight", "correct", "acceptable" answer for your needs.
Back to 2+2. My favourite summary is
An accountant will say "What do you want the answer to be?"
A mathematician will say "I believe it is 4, but I will have to prove it."
A statistician will say "The population is too small to give an accurate answer, but on the basis of the data supplied the answer lies between 3 and 5."
An economist will say "Based on today's thinking, the answer is 4 but the answer may be different tomorrow".
An engineer will say "The answer is 4, but adding a safety factor we will call it 5"
So which answer is the straight one in those descriptions then guys and gals?
Keep asking those questions, it is a vital part of this open public forum in my view. Apologies if my philosophical mood has hijacked the thread.
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Posted By Emma Forbes
I have no problem interpreting the law, thanks anyway Steve - of course, that's purely subjective. If people choose to be a bit wooly on how they present information and how it can be interpreted then so be it. Again, opinions which are purely subjective.
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Posted By Crim
With regard to this subject please look at my recent thread re ppe for using a nail gun.
Is it the way I asked the question or do people just not read the words?
All I want to know is what marking should be on the ppe.
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Posted By Steve Cartwright
LOL
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Posted By peter gotch 1
PMW
As an ex moderator of this site, I would comment that most responses to postings are positive in intent [whether or not the content is always legally sound]
In the main, you will get a helpful response to any postings, though occasionaly smeone with an ego-trip will want to get in - and depending on the response may well incur the wrath of the (incredibly patient) moderators.
Please keep asking questions. None of us know the answer to every question. I've been a H&S professional for nigh on 30 years but this did not preclude me from asking a Q earlier this month!
Reards, Peter
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Posted By PMW
Thank you to all who have taken the time to respond to my post.
I am on the site most week days and try to read through the relevant posts to my field. I always find very informative and sensible answers, but sometimes agressive and totally unhelpful too.
And yes in hindsight, sometimes the questions that we ask could be clearer or more direct, it must be wonderful to be perfect!
Again thanks to all that responded
Cheers
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Posted By justgossip
great site, good answers, I check very day.I learn a little everyday. If someone is on 'trip' good for them, no harm done and if they are passionate it is a good thing, i know plenty of dullards in the job.
I have been known to blast off..........
i just love a Friday
Garry
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Posted By Steve M Granger
After removing all the chaff some responses may also assist in future evidence or proving that you undertook sufficient assessment of the problem.
Certainally worth keeping the good responses or even following up with email perhaps to this effect?
Steve
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