Posted By A Campbell
Hi (pondering on the name!)

You need to be able to account for everyone in the workplace, how do you ensure they receive H&S information... even down to what to do in an emergency?

Also in case of fire... the fire officer may be interested if/who may be inside the building still... proactive may save lives?

Posted By samboynotcat
Hi Jim

Yep wife is manager but most staff were inherited from the old building and have been there 20 odd years and dont like change.

Posted By Andrew Carr
It's not a legal requirement, no.

But as others are saying it's good to know who's in for a variety of reasons, particularly in the event of an emergency.

Establish a good Fire Safety Management Plan and you'll get them buying into it.

Posted By Gilly Margrave
Not a legal requirement but definitely a good idea.
She may find the staff more cooperative if she gives them a written assurance that the info will only be used for fire safety purposes and not for disciplinary matters relating to timekeeping etc.

Gilly
(a been it/seen it/done it Shop Steward)

Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Nothing to do directly with fires or anything else. Education estrablishments generally have now strated to insist on visitors signing in and out mainly to prevent the kids from being taken away without the school knowing about it. Made the mistake some years ago now of going to pick my grandson up from school, went in a door which was wide open speaking to his teacher and taking him home. Quite normal I thought. However, the following day my daughter rang me to tell me the school were quite upset that I had entered the school and removed my grandson without authority, remember I spoke with his teacher, and that I was not allowed to go to the school in future. Needless to say I was a bit suprised at this so rang the head teacher to ask what it was about. I was told that I should have signed in at the main reception and not entered the school illegaly. Therefore I rang the local education department, who rang back and appologised because the school was at fault for leaving another access point open and the poor sign posting of the main reception area. I thought about this and came to the conclusion, the school were quite correct to require me to sign in as a visitor because I could have been a nasty type who eats kids for afters. BUT, it shows how careful schools have become, so I will always sign in in futrure and would encourage everyone to do the same.

Posted By Lee Mac
Sam

If your wife wishes to implement this on the grounds of fire safety- why not implement as part of the new company H&S Policy under arrangements and include in the risk assessment.

I tried a similar method previously in a company that I worked for- it took a bit of persuading but it did roll out in time through the use of the latter methods and a bit of awareness training with the employees as to their responsibilities regarding H&S requests as per the aforementioned docs.

It would help if your wife has a quiet word with the MD re: the merits of it. If it is brought in via a memo from MD it can add that bit extra weight to get the ball rolling.


Lee

Posted By Barry Cooper
As everyone has said, not a legal requirement, but I would recommend it.
As Merv states, they are not always perfect, but neither is carrying out a sweep of the building. Its OK with relatively small premise but with premises spread over a large area, it can take a long time to do the sweep, and may not be done 100%
I had this problem with a company, and discussed this issue with the fire brigade, and they agreed that doing a sweep of the premises, even with well trained personnel was not practicable, so better to use the sign in system, and monitor and manage it.

During fire drills we found it extremely valuable.

Barry

Posted By S T
If a system is not functional 100%, you try to improve it. (It's better to have some sort of system rather than nothinh at all).

I've seen many organisation with this system and it works ok for them.

Posted By WilliamTell
I've got to say that I find it absolutely staggering that 3 experienced practitioners with 90+ years service between them are now all in agreement that signing in/out books don't work and are a waste of time!

Lets start with an evacuation - is it inconceivable to suggest that the principal and reserve fire marshals are absent due to sickness on the same day? If so what happens?

At least with a signing in/out book you have an extra measure of control whereby a roll call can be taken outside - although you rely on people to sign in / out over time this will become second nature. Isn't health and safety now all about changing and shaping peoples behaviour - come on guys its not difficult to sign in and out. ok it might not be 100% all of time but its portrays a health and safety culture it demonstrates commitment that health and safety is on the agenda.

What about visitors and contractors - if they can sign in and out why is it so inconceivable to think staff can't too.

My advice to the poster is to consult with the workforce getting their views on board, reassuring them of our best intentions, implement the policy and monitor its effectiveness and sure enough it will become standard practice.

Good luck

Posted By WilliamTell
Merv -

My post should have read

"My advice to the poster is to consult with the workforce getting their views on board, reassuring them of Your best intentions".... and not "our best intentions".

So no I'm not the other half in reference to your comment below.

Codicil (?) to the above : your wife was right in the first place.

Posted By Graham Bullough
I'm intrigued by the earlier comment about education establishments starting to introduce visitor books. My employer's schools have had visitors books for many years, and it seems that various other local authority schools do the same. As their name implies, such books are used for visitors, but not the staff who regularly work at and are known to each other within a school or related establishment.

My standard advice is that all visitors who actually enter the building should sign in on arrival, including contractors (including ones who arrive to do external maintenance or repair work) and visiting council officials. It does not apply to parents delivering/collecting young children at start/finish times if they remain at an external entrance or go no further than a foyer which is supervised by regular staff. As regards finishing times, it is important to mention that each of my employer's nurseries and similar establishments has a system for ensuring that each young child is handed over either to a parent or other person, e.g. a
grandparent or neighbour, who has been given authority to do so by the parent/s.

Like some other responders, I don't set much store by visitors books as a record of who is and isn't present in a building in the event of a fire alarm sounding, simply because they cannot be relied on as accurate. Since the mid-1990s all of my employer's nurseries and primary schools have operated a "secure door policy" which means that visitors cannot simply wander into a building - they have to ring a bell or use an intercom before a receptionist/administrator or other member of staff opens a door - either directly or via a door release system - and then routinely asks them to sign in. The snag is that on departure some visitors forget to sign out, especially if no member of staff is present to remind them. If the fire alarm sounds in a premises, it's far better to use a sweep system i.e. by which trained designated members of staff briefly check specified rooms to ensure that they have been vacated and then report on this to an evacuation co-ordinator outside the building. This is also what happens in my employer's secondary schools. Reasons for this include the fact that class registers are unreliable. Also most such schools have more than one building and pupils move between them at different times of the school day.

Even though visitors books are not much use for fire precaution purposes, they are useful for other purposes, not least as a record of who is visiting/has visited, from what organisation, when and for what purpose. In some establishments, visitors are issued with a visitors badge or label (preferably bearing the current date) irrespective of whether they are accompanied or not by a member of staff.

Hope these comments help.

Posted By MickN
For what it's worth I'm with those who say they're not worth it. I was tasked with one for a building under construction/commissioning and it was a farce! If it's not 100% effective then it's a waste of time, worse still it's a danger to members of the fire brigade who would risk their lives for someone who forgot to sign out. My manager was loath to get rid of it though so I had to suffer on.

Mick

Posted By S T
Mick

Mention one control measure which is 100% effective. I don’t think, there’s any, otherwise our work places would have been 100% safe.

Health and safety is all about taking reasonable precautions and implementing suitable control measures. If there’re any problems with them, try to improve them.

No offence meant
ST

Posted By WilliamTell
I don't want to jump on the bandwagon here but I've got to agree with S T on this one - you would be very hard pushed to find any system that is 100% effective which is why the cornerstone of most if not all legislation is monitor and review.

Lets take the tried and trusted PTW system - this relies on signing exactly the same as signing in / out - no difference.

So what do we do if we find that someone hasn't cancelled/cleared it - do we scrap the system because its not 100%.....no of course we don't we make sure it does'nt happen again.

I agree that signing in and out might not work in all circumstances and yes it might be a bit much to fully expect everyone to toe the line at first but isn't being in this industry all about changing attitudes, behaviours, culture etc etc.

To throw in the towel because its not "100%" seems to me to be the easy way out.

Lets say we scrap the signing in / out book - what sort of message does this send out to staff?

Posted By John Allen
This has been an interesting thread and the opinion has veered from one camp to the other over the course of the last couple of days.

I suspect it may be a matter of personal experience. If, like I do, you work in a city centre office (low fire risk) with several entrances and exits, not to mention a smoking place, a client in the same building, a back door to the car park, and two assembly points, then a signing-in book does not work. The only practicable precaution becomes a sweep which is what we do.

The original question was "Is this a legal requirement". The answer correctly given was "no", but it is a legal requirement to ensure you evacuate all personnel safely.

There are places where signing-in does work. If the risk is high, the numbers small and not fluctuating and there is a single entrance/exit which can be effectively policed, then it does become a practicable precaution.

This question is one of a number that comes around on a regular basis. Could the webmasters create a “sticky” area for topics like this?

Posted By Haggis JM
I have now checked with my ex, who is head of a Local Authority Parent & Child Centre.

They have, and have had for a number of years, seperate sign-in books for staff, visitors and parents.

In many cases they have to be able to show which parent collect a child, or more to the point, that a particular adult did NOT collect a child...

This has also been required by Care Commission during audits and I am surprised that the original poster has not had this in place already.