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Posted By ScotsAM
Hi.
Can anybody shed any light on who would be liable for driving a company vehicle without MOT? Would it be the employee driving it or the Company for not ensuring it's MOT'd?
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Probably both. The driver for driving it and the company for allowing it. The vehicle should be MOT'd and that is the responsibility of the vehicle owner, but the driver should ensure it is MOT'd before driving it on a public road. If anycharges arise please remember that the insurance will also become invalid so a charge will arise from that angle as well.
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Posted By garyh
Bob, are you really saying that every driver should ask to see the MOT before driving a company vehicle? They are often not even held "on site"!
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
They should check with the vehicle owner that the vehicle is legal to use on the road not just assume so. Have driven vehicles without an MOT certificate in the past and got away with it because I have not been stopped, but lwgally if you drive a vehicle without an MOT you are responsible, the law is quite clear on that one.
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Posted By SteveD-M
Every vehicle company vehicle that is used by multiple drivers should have a pre-use check which would include checking information such as this. The procedure should not allow employees to drive potentially unsafe vehicles.
On the MOT its self MOT's are the minimum standard for vehicles - it is possible to leave an MOT station with a pass and get a fail 200m down the road at a roadside check..as the roadside check standard is higher than the MOT.
On the liability note the company would be fully liable as their procedures did not prevent it and the employer would be vicariously liable for his/her actions anyway.
:-) Smile nearly Friday!
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Posted By garyh
Sound great.......... But does anyone actually require drivers to see the MOT cert before driving? does it work?
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Posted By mike morland
An interesting question with some good points raised.
Have just emailed our transport department they ask for all company vehicle users to bring in their driving licience on an annual basis for photocopying.
This is to ensure that drivers haven't received points during the preceeding year that might affect their legal ability to drive.
So I have asked why we shouldn't place a copy of the MOT and insurance certificate in the glove compartment of each company vehicle so that the user can be assured that the legal requirements have been met by the company.
Regards
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
Mike
Good point with regards to providing a copy of the MOT and insurance. I would be interested in the response of your transport department.
Ray
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Posted By Chris Packham
We actually have a photocopy of all relevant documents in each car.
Incidentally, if you drive on the continent it is a legal requirement to have these in the care at all times. I was once a witness to an accident in Germany and was asked to produce the documents. As I had forgotten to take the originals I was quite relieved that the police were perfectly happy with the (coloured) photocopies.
Chris
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Posted By Bob Youel
technically its the driver that is first in line to receive a fine etc thereafter many others could be involved but the police would most likely not go beyond the driver if no other obvious offence had been identified
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Posted By Richard Altoft
Magistrates sentencing guidelines clearly recognise both the driver offending and in the case of a company vehicle also the company offending in respect of failure to produce MOT or certain other test certificates. The starting point for the fines differs for a driver, a owner-driver where the company owner and driver are the same and a company owned but employee driven case.
R
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Posted By Clive Griffiths
Hello, the relevant legislation is Using, Causing or Permitting Use of a Motor Vehicle Without a Test Certificate Section 47(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
Using is either the driver, or the driver's employer, when the driver is driving the vehicle on the employer's business.
Causing is to make another do some act, or do some action that produces an effect, result, or consequence. A drivers supervisor could 'cause'.
Permitting is less direct or explicit than causing, and gives leave or license to do something, or simply where a person allows something to happen when they are in a position to forbid it
So there you go!
Clive
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Assuming it is a works vehicle the onus is on the vehicle owner to ensure it has a current MOT certificate. Yes the driver for ensuring that it is in place before using the vehicle, but it still remains a fact that the vehicle owner (the cause of the vehicles use) will still be liable to prosecution so both the driver and the employer may well face prosecution end of story.
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Posted By mike morland
Raymond
As in most cases the initial response was 'why?' followed by 'who needs to know?'
Whilst the idea of putting copies in the glove compartment is simple , easy and covers every eventuality I am assured that this is not necessary as the transport department has a matrix of all company fleet vehicles showing when the MOT's are due.
Seems they have it covered but did say they would add the pool car to the list (ah, forgot that one then!)
I'm happy that they have a system in place that should ensure the driver and company are operating legally but just to endorse this I will be pointing out Section 47(1) of the RTA as posted by Clive.
Regards
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Posted By water67.
Hi, Just checked with our transport section. Onus is on the company to ensure vehicles have a current MOT not driver. Driver check lists relate to general road stuff, lights brakes oil water etc. more worrying for me is if the company are so reckless re an MOT why? will the vehicle (S) fail? thus not road worthy = risk for driver and any other road user. Whilst I agree that we shouldn't tie good companies/employers down with lots of regulations, paperwork etc. Such employers lead me to pause and think well if these "cowboys" aren't regulated who is going to protect the drivers and other road users. As for drivers making demands on this type of employer..there is a major recession, unemployment going up at a rapid rate..doubt many will wish to "rock" the boat at work.
Cheers
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Posted By mike morland
Perhaps it's time that an insurance disc and an MOT disc was displayed in the vehicle window along side the Tax disc.
I believe this practice exists in Jersey??
Or is that too simple bearing in mind that when the 'Smoking ban' came out last July appropriate signage had to be displayed in all company vehicles. How easy was that?
Regards
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Posted By Railroad
Dear all,
Anyone who has handled or is responsible for MOT certificates for motor cars and LGV vehicles for a few years now, will or should have noticed that there is a convenient peel off section detailing VRN, MOT pass No. & testing station ID to attach to an easily observed part of the vehicle, (usually inside of R/H lower w/screen).
VOSA have put this in place to easily identify and remind approaching expiry test dates, an easy system that works all you have to do is implement it, goods vehicles of course have their current test plates on display to comply with 'O' license requirements.
Regards,
Railroad
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Posted By A Campbell
Driving along the A120 yesterday I noticed a DVLA car set up in a layby with camera... I suppose this would be a cross check system that would flag up MOT & Insurance?
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Yep, absolutely right. Everything relating to a motor vehicle is now accessible by a police officer via the on board computer which gives direct links to the MOT database and insurance companies. Just look at some of the television programmes which show the police checking a vehicle out before they stop it. It gives them a solid base for any arrests and procecutions.
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Posted By Phil Rose
In answer to the original question - potentially a bit of both - I would like to think that the Police/DOT would take a pragmatic view - and go for the employer/o licence holder/vehicle operator etc.
I don't think it is practical for the driver to ask for a copy of the MOT certificate etc each time they use the vehicle, but a solution to this would be for the employer/vehicle operator to provide a copy of the MOT and hold this in each vehicle with the drivers handbook or whatever
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Posted By mike morland
Bob
I agree but the original post, I believe, was regarding the ability of the employee to be able to see sight of confirmation that the vehicle is legal before the police stop them to advise them that it isn't and thus avoid the possibility of prosecution.
That said, I have always taken it on trust that the pool car I have to drive occasionally is legal in all respects of the documentation and have never asked to see the proof.
Regards
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Posted By ScotsAM
The OP was relating to a pool car that it turns out was used, in trust, for 11 months by many different employees, without an MOT due to a 'clerical error'.
Just wanted to sort out the liability for such a major failing should any employee have been stopped.
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Posted By Bob Shillabeer
Well it seems unanimous then the driver copes it and the owner copes it a double wammy don't you agree.
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Posted By John Richards
No mot is not an arrestable offence.
There are not even any points on your licence for it.
You are insured even if the vehicle is not mot'ed, it is only if the vehicle is not roadworthy that the insurance may be invalid.
Anyone can check the current mot status on-line....they just need the vehicle registration and the number off the V5 document.
Not rocket science is it.
http://www.timesonline.c....ece?token=null&offset=0
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Posted By jervis
I would of thought it would be down to the fleet owners to make sure of this !!!!
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Posted By nheathsiae
If you are that worried and the vehicle is over three years old just go to:-
www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk
Vehicle Inquiry
Enter the Reg and make and it will tell you, when the MOT is due or possibly expired!!
Don't drive any vehicle without an MOT, if it is your comany vehicle get if off the road even if it is taxed (Road Tax).
Found out to my cost a month ago.
Nick
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Posted By Raymond Rapp
It is clear from this thread that there are a numbers of issues that are not so straightforward. Is reasonable to expect individuals to check whether the vehicle is road worthy via a MOT? In many situations I think not. Having particulars in the vehicle seems a sensible suggestion to me. Meanwhile, the company should ensure through its driving policy that issues of insurance, MOT and general road worthiness are properly articulated and suitable checks are in place to see they are put into practice.
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Posted By Bryan Goldsmith 16052
In most cases there would be a need for the driver to keep a record of the journey so what I have doen for a charity I work for is produced a standard record sheet with milometer readings/driver name/details of journey and a list of quick checks they should make before a journey.
Included at the top of the sheet are the next due dates for Insurance/Tax/MOT - 100% foolproof but gives an element of confidence to the average person.
Regards
Bryan
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